Christians and Christmas in Afghanistan and Iraq
There will be no midnight masses in Iraq this year. They have been canceled in light of ongoing attacks on Iraqi Christians. Kurdistan, once thought to be a safe haven for Christians, has recently seen a spate of anti-Christian violence.
The last Christian church in Afghanistan was closed in March of 2010. Investor's Business Daily reports that half of Iraq's Christians have fled the country since 2003.
Ten years ago I would not have guessed that the situation of Christians in Afghanistan and Iraq would deteriorate dramatically as a consequence of American military involvement in the region. I really missed the boat on that one. The surge in Iraq and the mini-surge in Afghanistan have not produced results for the rights of Christians. Their equal rights and the equal protection of the laws are simply denied.
I still do not understand why our policy-makers thought it wise to establish officially Islamic regimes in Iraq and Afghanistan. We are already seeing an increase in religious persecution in Egypt. I expect the same thing will happen in Syria.
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Comments:
Oct '10
Re: Christians and Christmas in Afghanistan and Iraq
The State Department is maintaining the proud tradition started by Alger Hiss and friends.
Never, Never act in the interests of the United States.
Mar '11
Re: Christians and Christmas in Afghanistan and Iraq
It's hardly the State Dept's fault; do you think Christian churches would have lasted longer without a US presence? There is a strong tide in central Asia, and Iraq and Afghanistan are hardly alone in succumbing to it.
I can aver that there was a midnight mass (ok, 9 pm) in Khost, Afghanistan tonight. Just no Afghans involved.
Re: Christians and Christmas in Afghanistan and Iraq
Jackal: It's hardly the State Dept's fault; do you think Christian churches would have lasted longer without a US presence? There is a strong tide in central Asia, and Iraq and Afghanistan are hardly alone in succumbing to it.
I can aver that there was a midnight mass (ok, 9 pm) in Khost, Afghanistan tonight. Just no Afghans involved. · Dec 24 at 10:24am
It is not obvious to me that things would have been the same or worse for Christians in the region without a US presence. Large numbers of Iraqi Christians were not fleeing the country under the Hussein regime; this is remarkable, as Hussein was a horrible tyrant.
But why are things worse in spite of the US presence? And why did we help establish Islamic regimes in Iraq and Afghanistan?
This certainly says something about President Bush's goal of transforming the region politically.
Apr '11
Re: Christians and Christmas in Afghanistan and Iraq
John Grant
It is not obvious to me that things would have been the same or worse for Christians in the region without a US presence. Large numbers of Iraqi Christians were not fleeing the country under the Hussein regime; this is remarkable, as Hussein was a horrible tyrant.
But why are things worse in spite of the US presence? And why did we help establish Islamic regimes in Iraq and Afghanistan?
This certainly says something about President Bushs goal of transforming the region politically. ·
Saddam's was an Islamic regime, particularly from the mid '90s, and ever increasingly. He did use Christians, but only in the sense that dictators have always used minorities; as people he could trust because everyone knew that he could, and would at the drop of a hat, without any kind of consequence, murder vast numbers of them if they were in any way suspect.
They still did not prosper, but did not leave for the same reason so many others could not leave; doing so meant death for them or their families. Some groups could and did leave, because they had the support of neighbors (Iran, Jordan, or Syria). Christians received no such offer.
Apr '11
Re: Christians and Christmas in Afghanistan and Iraq
John Grant
It is not obvious to me that things would have been the same or worse for Christians in the region without a US presence. Large numbers of Iraqi Christians were not fleeing the country under the Hussein regime; this is remarkable, as Hussein was a horrible tyrant.
But why are things worse in spite of the US presence? And why did we help establish Islamic regimes in Iraq and Afghanistan?
This certainly says something about President Bush's goal of transforming the region politically. · Dec 24 at 10:50am
Sorry, I was responding about Iraq and just as I posted realised that you were talking about Afghanistan, too.
I take it you're aware that Afghanistan's pre-US regime was also pretty firmly islamic? If not, I have some reading I can recommend.
If the question is why the US did not install a secular regime, then the answer lies in the nature of democracy. There are lots of Islamic options to pick from, just as there are many flavors of politician in Christian countries, but almost all the politicians in almost entirely Islamic countries will be Islamic. The exceptions in Iraq are communist or Christian.
Jun '10
Re: Christians and Christmas in Afghanistan and Iraq
Another example of GW's legacy crumbling before our eyes. When I think of all the sacrifices of our brave men and women, all the treasure spent, and we end up with this. General McArthur is rolling in his grave. Are Japan, Germany, Italy our enemies? We have become politically impotent to fight a war. I now remember how outraged I was when we allowed Iraq to produce an Islamic constitution. If we are going to war our rules should be very simple. We will win, you will lose. Namby, pamby, nicey, nice and war do not compute.
Edited on December 24, 2011 at 8:59pmRe: Christians and Christmas in Afghanistan and Iraq
Sorry, I was responding about Iraq and just as I posted realised that you were talking about Afghanistan, too.
I take it you're aware that Afghanistan's pre-US regime was also pretty firmly islamic? If not, I have some reading I can recommend.
If the question is why the US did not install a secular regime, then the answer lies in the nature of democracy. There are lots of Islamic options to pick from, just as there are many flavors of politician in Christian countries, but almost all the politicians in almost entirely Islamic countries will be Islamic. The exceptions in Iraq are communist or Christian. · Dec 24 at 11:05am
Thanks for your thoughtful response. What you say above is entirely correct. Christians were oppressed in Iraq and were a tiny oppressed minority in Afghanistan.
We have not built democracy in the proper sense in either place. Democracy that is not in principle based on the equal rights of all will tend towards despotism. I wonder if our massive investment in blood and treasure in nation-building in either regime was worth it. I think it was not.
Edited on December 24, 2011 at 9:15pmAug '10
Re: Christians and Christmas in Afghanistan and Iraq
Maybe they've fled Iraq and Afghanistan now because they can.
Under the old regimes, where could they go, and how would they manage to get out?
It's kind of like East Germans who moved west after the Wall came down, or Jews who left Europe after the Nazis were defeated. They did it because they finally could.
Edited on December 24, 2011 at 11:18pmFeb '11
Re: Christians and Christmas in Afghanistan and Iraq
I hope it is US policy to welcome Christians - or Jews - fleeing Iraq or Afghanistan. But I doubt it.
Apr '11
Re: Christians and Christmas in Afghanistan and Iraq
John Grant
Thanks for your thoughtful response. What you say above is entirely correct. Christians were oppressed in Iraq and were a tiny oppressed minority in Afghanistan.
We have not built democracy in the proper sense in either place. Democracy that is not in principle based on the equal rights of all will tend towards despotism. I wonder if our massive investment in blood and treasure in nation-building in either regime was worth it. I think it was not. ·
Yeah, I've always been kind of suspicious of that definition of democracy, adopting Orwell's view that we too often use "democracy" to mean "good". I think it is probably true that the worst decision in Bush's first term was the decision to support the Iraqis getting a Belgian constitution; no one can eliminate corruption or govern effectively in that.
Nonetheless, while Belgian democracy is not American, it is unbelievably better than what went before. If your concern is about constitutional rights for Christians, they are far better off now than they were. Their problem is from criminals; "democracy" does not mean "free from criminals", even in its full "liberal democracy" sense.
Apr '11
Re: Christians and Christmas in Afghanistan and Iraq
It is difficult to know if charitable spending has been worth it, whether of blood or treasure. How does one value the ending of Uday's abuses against the building of a fire engine in Vermont? How much more difficult to compare the achievements that would have been accomplished by those who were instead serving in Iraq, or the misery saved to the Israeli family that has lost a man to a terrorist attack sponsored by Saddam against the misery caused to the American family who has lost a man in achieving that?
Personally, I find it very hard to question the value of the lives lost. Iraq was once a thriving, cosmopolitan, byword for luxury and civilization (see, eg. "thief of Baghdad" and similar stuff). It has been beset, though, by truly unbelievable horror on a continual basis for a half century, intensifying over the last 32 years. There are endless things lost that are being rebuilt; housing, education, provision for retirement, and so on. Community and trust is one of those things. The coups, Iraq-Iran war, Gulf War, sanctions and civil war, liberation and Al Qaida would be hard to bear even without Saddam's ghastliness.
Apr '11
Re: Christians and Christmas in Afghanistan and Iraq
There have been areas of tremendous progress. I worked as the only resident western non-Iraqi in an Iraqi company with Kurds and Arabs, Christians, Shia, and Sunni, and many companies, government departments, and districts are similarly seamlessly integrated. There are also areas where there isn't progress, or where things have gotten worse, but the status quo was not an option. As Saddam lost control over portions of the country, things were already, before the invasion, becoming less safe for minorities, sectarianism having been deliberately encouraged throughout the '90s. Had the liberation happened later, had there been yet more sectarian attrocities under Saddam, the chances of reducing those tensions would have been even lower.