Childish Morality
I did a little experiment this morning with my children, ages 8 and 13. It all started because the 13-year-old posed a question about world hunger and the morality of feeding a pet dog. So I challenged them with some harder problems, only involving humans, borrowed from Michael Sandel's Justice course at Harvard. Specifically, is it right to kill one person to save several others? The question is posed in various scenarios, all of which can have different answers.
Both kids had an inclination towards the simplistic 'greatest good for the greatest number' rule. The younger the child, the simpler the rule. The 8-year-old's rule was to choose the alternative in which the fewest people die. The older kid tried to make a more nuanced rule, backing away from simplistic utilitarianism. In other words, they were both guided by the philosophical underpinnings of socialism and animal rights, among other odious ideas. The anecdotal evidence is that children hold socialist views, but leave them behind as they get older, at least some of them do. The others become leftists. Reminds me of what P.J. O'Rourke said, "At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child - miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless. Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
Has anyone else noticed this aspect of child development? If so, what does it mean for parents?
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Re: Childish Morality
What an interesting post! My kids are a bit young to ask about such things (they are 6, 4 and 2) but I am fascinated with child development experiments. I wonder if there are such studies out there relating to this. By that I mean ones that ask children/young adults such questions and then analyze the data. I suppose there are other factors involved that might guide their choices, perhaps even the philosophies of the parents. Anyway, really interesting post! Wish I had more time to research about it ... I hope some other parents respond.
Aug '10
Re: Childish Morality
Hello Dr Lorentz!
Perhaps it would be interesting to ask your children whether you as parents should feed them only rice (or ramen noodles or something similarly cheap) or allow them to go hungry so that the money you save on food for your own children could be used to buy food for the genuinely starving.
I bet your children would immediately sense that you would be abdicating your responsibility as parents by not providing them with the good nutrition you can afford.
Then maybe they would start to see that strangers matter less to us than our friends and family not because strangers are worth less than we are, but simply because we do not know them as well and it is therefore harder to know how best to help them. (A parent is more likely to know what his own child needs, after all.) For the same reason, it makes sense for strangers to be concerned with their own affairs more than they are concerned about us.
In the cosmic sense, any dog may well have less value than any human. But when you own a dog, he depends on you specifically, when strange humans do not.
Edited on Jan 9, 2011 at 2:16pmSep '10
Re: Childish Morality
Midget Faded Rattlesnake:
....
Then maybe they would start to see that strangers matter less to us than our friends and family not because strangers are worth less than we are, but simply because we do not know them as well and it is harder to know how best to help them. (A parent is more likely to know what his own child needs, after all.) For the same reason, it makes sense for strangers to be concerned with their own affairs more than they are concerned about us.
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For the sake of brevity, I left out most of the conversation. Indeed, some of the points you raise did come up. Morality evolves in children, partly because they learn ethics as they grow, and partly because they mature.
My point, if there is one, was to draw the analogy between development of morality in children and morality in the adult/political sphere. The point you make about the distance of strangers is lost on children and the folks on left. I don't intend this in a demeaning way; it just seems like there's a similarity.
Aug '10
Re: Childish Morality
drlorentz
My point, if there is one, was to draw the analogy between development of morality in children and morality in the adult/political sphere. The point you make about the distance of strangers is lost on children and the folks on left.
You're right: both children and the Left undervalue the cost of gathering knowledge.
With children it can be excused: they don't know how hard acquiring the knowledge to make wise decisions can be.
Children are (by definition) inexperienced, and what experience they do have of acquiring knowledge is that it comes fairly easily to them, partly because they're born knowing so little that rapidly acquiring new knowledge is unavoidable, partly because of childhood brain plasticity -- but also because our culture has learned through painful experience the importance of educating children, so children get more help than they realize.
I think, incidentally, one reason that "intelligent folks" tend to be leftists is that, because they personally experience a lower cost of acquiring knowledge than average, they just assume that the cost of gathering knowledge for humanity as a whole is considerably less than it actually is.
Dec '10
Re: Childish Morality
I approach this same situation (as it does come up), by explaining to the kids what they, themselves, can personally observe. A pet, any pet, must depend upon its human for survival, or escape. A human, any human, can escape its circumstance.
For an older child, an aerial photograph of the island of Hispanola is a handy visual aid. Santo Domingo on one side, Haiti on the other. Same place, completely different appearance, solely based upon the humans residing there and their willingness to live under the bad master of tyrany.
This isn't that complicated. My kids are constantly bringing home nonsense from school, or TV, so we discuss it and try to resolve it. By now, they know by heart that the Education Colleges at universities have, on average, vastly lower SAT scores amongst their enrollees, than other colleges. They also know that they are not allowed to disrespect a teacher, solely for that reason, because I tell them that teachers know more than (fill in the blank) 6th graders!
Oct '10
Re: Childish Morality
What I've noticed is that children need to be taught to share, let alone equally (even with those as close as siblings, Midget). I suspect such parental lessons have more influence than any putative impulse to socialism. I'm actually not sure why you associate the "greater good" in this particular instance with socialism, per se, when it could as easily be cast as triage. Wouldn’t most conservatives decline to ransom political hostages? I’m afraid the politically correct responses you apparently seek escape me.
It seems to me that you have posed too complex a problem to admit of easy labels based upon your children’s reactions, as described. I certainly don't see any singularly odious responses here or propensities to be purged. Such thought experiments are designed to be difficult, and should be. Even a person who might ostensibly sacrifice one to save many from death would likely find personally killing another in the flesh a rather different proposition. Yet that alone is where the real dimensions of the question would ultimately come into focus, and where abstract answers (which is all that most of us will ever have to provide) might be truly tested.
Sep '10
Re: Childish Morality
...
I'm actually not sure why you associate the "greater good" in this particular instance with socialism, per se, when it could as easily be cast as triage. Wouldn’t most conservatives decline to ransom political hostages? I’m afraid the politically correct responses you apparently seek escape me.
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The connection between utilitarianism and socialism is well-established. I'm hardly the first person to make this connection, especially as articulated in these moral questions. In short, the good of the collective is placed above the good of the individual.
Furthermore, there are no responses, politically correct or otherwise, that I was seeking. You will find no mention of expected responses in my post. As I noted above, I left out most of the conversation in the interest of brevity. There was much discussed, and many scenarios were considered. You're quite right that there are no simple answers, but the reasoning that is used to arrive at answers is telling.
Jul '10
Re: Childish Morality
I don't care. As long as you have more pie than I do, it's not fair.
Aug '10
Re: Childish Morality
Gosh, Kenneth, we're just trying to help you preserve your svelte physique.
Oct '10
Re: Childish Morality
drlorentz
Furthermore, there are no responses, politically correct or otherwise, that I was seeking.
That was admittedly just my take away from the reference to your children being guided by odious ideas. Would it be fair to assume you're hoping those responses will change with time?
Yes, I'm aware of the construct. If, however, the "greater good" is, by definition, a socialist marker in every instance, then so too must be triage and the refusal to ransom hostages, no?
May '10
Re: Childish Morality
Interesting post.
I can still remember the day -- I must have been 8 or 9 when I was speaking to an elderly neighbor -- a sweet-natured surrogate grandmother -- and in response to some discussion I asked why we didn't just take the extra from the people that had more than enough and give it to the people that needed more.
She just about took my head off. It made quite an impression but started started me thinking about social systems in a whole different way.
Jan '11
Re: Childish Morality
Here's my question. Say there's intelligent life forms on another planet that happen to have the fuel required to save humanity, which is facing a (hypothetical) shortage ultimately ending in starvation and death.
Complicate the matter - and say that there is, say, a sacred tree overlying said fuel; perhaps a metal impossible to obtain on earth.
Is it ethical to uproot the tree, with no lives lost to the inhabitants of that planet (let's make them blue in colour for fun) in order get that fuel and save billions? :-D
May '10
Re: Childish Morality
I'm not sure it's utilitarian so much as just shallow thinking. The "greatest good for the greatest number" isn't a bad starting point. It's just insufficient. Complex morality involves balancing competing values.
Kids don't start as liberals. "Might makes right" and "finders keepers" are not liberal (nor conservative) beliefs, but all kids figure them out.
But I'm not completely denying a likeness.
Jul '10
Re: Childish Morality
Erik Larsen:
, a sacred tree overlying said fuel Jan 11 at 2:34pm
Sacred to Who?
Jan '11
Re: Childish Morality
Jimmy Carter
Erik Larsen:
, a sacred tree overlying said fuel Jan 11 at 2:34pm
Sacred to Who? · Jan 11 at 2:57pm
Let's say to the intelligent life forms - how 'bout we call them Navi. One tree vs billions of lives :-)
Jan '11
Re: Childish Morality
I really love this post. It gets to the heart of the matter. What does this all mean for parents? If at the core of Liberalism lies the heart of a spoiled child, then it behooves parents to be more tenacious and less doting in their children's upbringing. How many times have I thought to myself, "I'm not in the mood for a fight. It's easier just to let him get away with this." But child rearing is a pay-me-now or pay-me-later proposition. Isn't it? Eventually the bill comes due.
Oct '10
Re: Childish Morality
The moral relativism involved in the "experiment" is the norm in cultures which lack a transcendant theistic framework, especially those with an evolutionary ontology. If we are all equally a product of slime and time then killing one to save many is a rational and even moral decision.
Children are enculturated by their caregivers and significant others. This is why healthy functioning families are important to society, if we don't want to devolve into the culture of "The Lord of the Flies". It is also why "religious" people should be aware that the public education system is not going to teach anything but moral relativism in the classroom.
Jun '10
Re: Childish Morality
The ability to think abstractly is something most children don't develop till around age 13 or 14. A few start earlier while some never develop the ability at all. A wise parent instructs his young children in two primary areas. The child must be properly socialized. This is why early instruction stresses simple concepts like sharing. The second thing a parent must do is establish the rules and a healthy respect in his child for parental authority.
Once the child reaches the age of discrimination the job of moral instruction only gets harder. Children are more likely to accept the morality of their peers than that of their parents if not given a proper foundation in the home. Religion certainly helps. I can't offer any other advice in this area except to recommend that parents maintain a close relationship (based on trust) with their offspring. All kids will lie to avoid punishment. The key, at least as far as I've observed it, is for the child to understand that discipline is remedial rather than strictly punitive. Although for kids with a strictly primitive morality, sometimes punitive is all they understand.
Jan '11
Re: Childish Morality
I can't lay my hands on the psychological study, but the basics of it was a morality based decision to be made - people reached different decision points based on how the scenario was presented. In other words, all the pertinent facts were kept constant - just the verbiage and manner of presentation of the scenario changed. An important point to consider, and obviously applicable to how many people (esp politically) can see the world so differently.
Re: Childish Morality
I bet I know whose kids got My First Trolley Car under the tree this Christmas...