Catholics and Same-Sex Marriage
Over at Catholic World Report's blog, Ignatius Press President Mark Brumley points out that Catholic laity have a responsibility and obligation that they may not have been aware of:
The informed Catholic will be alert to government’s responsibility—its sacred duty—not simply to uphold some broadly-defined relationship called marriage but “to recognize, protect, and promote the authentic nature” of marriage and family life. The authentic nature of marriage is the union of one man and one woman, not same-sex marriage. It is that definition Catholics are morally obliged to work to maintain in law, not simply in private practice. Catholics should accept no legal substitutes, especially not same-sex substitutes or marriage as a mere “private union” justified in the name of “freedom”.
Read the rest right here. I would of course -- in a shameless ploy for Main Feed Promotion -- be very interested in Tommy De Seno's thoughts.
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Dec '10
Re: Catholics and Same-Sex Marriage
Just why should I listen to Mark Brumley?
Dec '11
Re: Catholics and Same-Sex Marriage
Just why should I listen to Mark Brumley?
Because he came up with a new catchphrase: "the authentic nature of marriage".
Jul '11
Re: Catholics and Same-Sex Marriage
Ohhhh, can I be third or fourth in a 500 post debate.
Dec '11
Re: Catholics and Same-Sex Marriage
Ohhhh, can I be third or fourth in a 500 post debate.
[Comment redacted by editor. Rude comments kill off conversation.]
Edited on Jan 10 at 5:52pmFeb '11
Re: Catholics and Same-Sex Marriage
If you're all sick of this topic, then why are you here posting? You should listen to Mark Brumley because he might have something interesting to say. If you disagree, fine. Pseudodionysius is not asking you to obey Mark Brumley. The kitty thinks he may have light to shed on the topic of same-sex marriage from a Catholic perspective. And the phrase "the authentic nature of marriage" is not new. Try googling it, with quotes around it so you don't get keywords. It has been around since the 1960s at least.
*** My opening sentence was in response to a previous post which was edited by the Overlords. Now it doesn't make sense, since the earlier comment was redacted, but the sentiment is still valid.
Edited on Jan 10 at 5:56pmSep '10
Re: Catholics and Same-Sex Marriage
Thanks Mama. I hate to say I toad you so, but Brumley points out the Second Vatican Council document Gaudium et Spes (easily the most problematic or "liberal" to use an almost uselessly elastic phrase these days) and its oft overlooked paragraph 52 to uncover an obligation required of Catholics faithful to the Church's teaching magisterium.
As to nature, if you open up C.S. Lewis's Studies in Words, Nature is the first word discussed.
Feb '11
Re: Catholics and Same-Sex Marriage
Pseudodionysius
I hate to say I toad you so,
Dec '11
Re: Catholics and Same-Sex Marriage
The Carthusians say that the Cross stands while the world turns. During a "pride" parade to celebrate New York gay "marriage," the Cross stood as the world... gyrated... past. Walker Percy wrote that ours is "a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in spite of great scientific and technological advances, man has not the faintest idea of who he is or what he is doing."
I was struck by the profound otherness we live as Catholics, as strangers in a strange land. It seemed like an entire city was waving rainbow flags, Whigishly cheering the march of "progress," self-assured in their correctness and the "bigotry" of their opponents rendered legislatively irrelevant. Before an eternal image of real Love, the Pantocrator, a congregation leaned an ear close to the altar of God, who gives real Joy to our youth, to hear a pastor speak hard words.
That is our great burden. We must bear hard truths, often silently, without any comprehension by even our closest friends and family. It is tempting to nod in lockstep (and have no doubt that beneath many rainbow flags are brownshirts). But to do so is to abandon reality and choose the Lie.
Edited on Jan 10 at 6:04pmDec '11
Re: Catholics and Same-Sex Marriage
Was I rude? Pardon me.
But this topic has been done over and over and over on this site. And no one changes anyone else's mind. The religious types stand their ground. The civil liberties types stand theirs.
The only change that's going to happen on the topic of gay marriage is generational: within one coming generation, gay marriage will be an accepted fact and most people will be asking themselves, "What was all the drama about?"
Feb '11
Re: Catholics and Same-Sex Marriage
Nobody's Perfect: Was I rude? Pardon me.
But this topic has been done over and over and over on this site. And no one changes anyone else's mind. The religious types stand their ground. The civil liberties types stand theirs.
The only change that's going to happen on the topic of gay marriage is generational: within one coming generation, gay marriage will be an accepted fact and most people will be asking themselves, "What was all the drama about?" · Jan 10 at 6:07pm
Yeah, that's what they said about abortion in the 1970s. Hasn't happened yet.
Feb '11
Re: Catholics and Same-Sex Marriage
Nobody's Perfect, I certainly didn't think you were rude, or at least, not rude enough to be redacted. There have been plenty of ruder comments on this site that the Overlords have let go...
Dec '11
Re: Catholics and Same-Sex Marriage
Nobody's Perfect: Was I rude? Pardon me.
But this topic has been done over and over and over on this site. And no one changes anyone else's mind. The religious types stand their ground. The civil liberties types stand theirs.
The only change that's going to happen on the topic of gay marriage is generational: within one coming generation, gay marriage will be an accepted fact and most people will be asking themselves, "What was all the drama about?" · Jan 10 at 6:07pm
Well... the Church's moral philosophy has been a cause of many converts throughout history.
The man on Peter's throne once said: "Truth is not subject to a majority vote"
Edited on Jan 10 at 8:33pmRe: Catholics and Same-Sex Marriage
Pseud,
Interesting post. In Lutheranism, we have something similar. We're told that it's not sufficient to confess what is true but also oppose that which is false.
There are roughly eleventy billion ideas modern people have about marriage that are false these days. We have our work cut out for us.
Re: Catholics and Same-Sex Marriage
Incidentally, I wouldn't say that my mind has been changed about same-sex marriage since reading Ricochet discussions but it has definitely been broadened. (One could possibly say I've become more confused about the issue -- but in a good way, I think.) I thank people for taking the time to make good arguments.
Feb '11
Re: Catholics and Same-Sex Marriage
This post by the Pseudo-cat is of great interest to me personally. I know many same-sex couples (I live in New Paltz, for goodness sake), and love at least some of them (many I only know casually or as acquaintances). I teach pre-Canas, or Catholic marriage prep, with Papa Toad, who is not Catholic, and I believe that marriage is one of the most important issues of the day. For someone like Tommy De Seno, whose Ricochet profile calls him a "proud Catholic," so angrily to support same-sex marriage, is puzzling to me, especially in light of the arguments raised by Mark Brumley. It reminds me of Inigo Montoya's comments to Vizzini, that perhaps that word does not mean what he thinks it means.
Mar '11
Re: Catholics and Same-Sex Marriage
Because he's right.
Mar '11
Re: Catholics and Same-Sex Marriage
You are completely and utterly wrong about that. The same thing was said about abortion after Roe v Wade was crammed down our throat. And for awhile, indeed it seemed as if younger generations were going "what was the big deal?", but comitted, moral people literally spent decades debating and teaching and pleading... this is wrong. And attitudes are actually shifting back in a noticeable way.
Moral principles do not fade away with the ages. Nor will the defenders of said principles simply lay down, no matter what law is passed.
Sep '10
Re: Catholics and Same-Sex Marriage
Mama Toad
Pseudodionysius
I hate to say I toad you so,
Jan 10 at 6:02pm
I bid bedder.
Sep '10
Re: Catholics and Same-Sex Marriage
Mollie Hemingway, Ed.: Pseud,
Interesting post. In Lutheranism, we have something similar. We're told that it's not sufficient to confess what is true but also oppose that which is false.
There are roughly eleventy billion ideas modern people have about marriage that are false these days. We have our work cut out for us. · Jan 10 at 6:25pm
As a convert, I'm like the guy who walks into the house after someone trashed it and then asks where the silverware and stained glass are even though the windows have been shot out, the roof has holes and the staircase burnt.
We're on Generation #3 of bad catechesis, so a great deal of Catholics are uninformed or misinformed about their responsibilities in the public sphere as outlined not only in their own basic Catechism but in various documents of the Church produced relatively recently. I thought this article was compelling because Pope Benedict XVI, while Cardinal Ratzinger was very critical of large parts of Gaudium et Spes as being ambiguous. To unearth something this concrete is noteworthy.
Sep '10
Re: Catholics and Same-Sex Marriage
But this topic has been done over and over and over on this site.
If you carefully reread the post, it was directed specifically at confessional Catholics, rather than readers generally, though, of course, they may feel free to comment before I drag them away to be tortured on a rack in a medieval dungeon (it is Torquemada Tuesday here in the Member Feed)