Cartoonist Gives Up Life, and So Does the West
James' post this morning (it's morning in Istanbul) is perhaps the most depressing I've yet seen on Ricochet. It's not that this woman has been forced into hiding, although that's certainly depressing enough. It's the reaction to it.
How many people here are old enough to remember the intellectual and moral climate when the Ayatollah Khomenei pronounced a death sentence on Salman Rushdie in 1988, following the publication of the Satanic Verses? I was at Balliol, the most left-wing college at Oxford, where the embrace of every old-fashioned pinko platitude was commonplace and the college turtle was named Rosa Luxemburg. But I do not recall one single student, one single academic, saying anything like, "Well, he was stupid and he shouldn't have done it. I don't feel sorry for him."
Everyone was outraged. Everyone was appalled. Everyone had precisely the reaction one would expect, in a sane world: "These people are barbarous savages--how can this be happening in the year 1988?" (By "these people," they meant the ones who were taking to the streets and calling for his death--not "all Moslems," of whom we had plenty at Balliol, and who were of the same appalled mind as the rest of us.) The Left saw the fatwa as an outrage against their values--by a reactionary right-wing movement.
What on earth has happened? How have we become so inured to this? How could we even be debating this?
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Jul '10
Re: Cartoonist Gives Up Life, and So Does the West
It seems the Left has given up the fight because the Right has taken it up. For the same reasons many conservatives support Sarah Palin only because they hate her enemies, liberals seem to have completely shut off their criticism of radical Islam. The American Left hates radical Islam's greatest and most formidable enemy: the American Right.
Sep '10
Re: Cartoonist Gives Up Life, and So Does the West
Claire, Mark Steyn has covered this ground many times. He will not be the least bit surprised by this story.
Simply put, the Islamic world has figured out what works. At the slightest provocation, real or perceived, no matter how slight, Muslims take to the streets like howling, bloodthirsty maniacs and threaten to slaughter innocent people.
And the West meekly backs down – every single time. It is abject surrender before creeping Islamofascism.
You have chided people in Ricochet (including myself) for thinking of Islam as a great, sinister global monolith. What are we supposed to think when people like Molly Norris – a perfectly ordinary, totally inoffensive human being (and an American citizen) – become the target of a fatwa issued by deranged Imams halfway around the world? Molly will now spend the rest of her life waiting for a knife in the back whenever she goes out to buy a loaf of bread.
Where are your precious "moderate" Muslims, Claire? Their silence is deafening.
I'm angry, Claire, but not at you. I'm angry because a totalitarian ideology disguised as a religion is trying to turn the world into a nightmare, and everyone turns a blind eye to it.
Edited on Sep 16, 2010 at 1:52amRe: Cartoonist Gives Up Life, and So Does the West
Humza, do you feel as if you're being ignored here? David, Humza was actually the first to comment.
Sep '10
Re: Cartoonist Gives Up Life, and So Does the West
Have I violated some sort of forum etiquette? I am confused.
Jul '10
Re: Cartoonist Gives Up Life, and So Does the West
Dr. Berlinski, I don't feel ignored at all. It's completely understandable that a single moderate Muslim commenter on Ricochet is not enough to sway everyone's opinion.
Mr. Parsons, I do not mean to single you out, but it seems to me from hearing the frank opinions of many Ricochet members on this topic (which I am very grateful for) that there are two problems.
First, moderate Muslims are simply drowned out by not only radical's own voices, but the loudspeakers that all media outlets, across the political spectrum, throw them, while doing the occasional bit here and there about the moderate Muslims, but then going back to scary images of brown men with beards and skullcaps.
Second, Ricochet's members are sharp, educated and knowledgeable. But many members seem to have done very little actual research into all of the Muslim mosques and organizations in the US that preach moderation and peace. In fact, after Dr. Savage posted about Dr. Jasser's work, subsequent comments in other conversations made it seem as if no one had read the post.
I'd love to hear what others have to say on this.
Edited on Sep 16, 2010 at 2:22amRe: Cartoonist Gives Up Life, and So Does the West
No, David, no--I was just pointing out that when Moslems do speak up, they tend to be ignored or dismissed as "not really Moslems." Humza, if I recall correctly, is a pious and practicing Moslem, but when he says, "I condemn this," or words clearly implying that, it doesn't seem to register--to the point where he can be the first to jump into this thread and then find, below his post, the words, "Where are the Moslems speaking out about this?" If I were him (I don't propose to speak for him), I might find that a bit frustrating.
Edited on Sep 16, 2010 at 2:18amRe: Cartoonist Gives Up Life, and So Does the West
Humza, I agree--your one voice in a single comment isn't evidence of a wider movement. But it is evidence that you exist. And you and I both know you're not alone. You're absolutely right to note that the media gives very little outlet to voices like yours.
Please call me Claire, by the way. We're very informal here, and besides, I can't take the honorific "Dr." that seriously. It seems so medical.
Jul '10
Re: Cartoonist Gives Up Life, and So Does the West
I noticed my comment did not actually comment on the atrocity of having a fatwa send an innocent person into hiding for fear of her own safety. The threat of and acts of violence due only to what someone has said, in any case, religious or not, is a crime and deserves a strong response.
I don't want to constantly comment on myself and my faith, but I cannot tell you all how I loathe the lunatics calling themselves devout Muslims. While applying to West Point in my senior year of high school (2002-2003) a Sikh friend of mine commented "But they're killing your people, man." I responded "Last I checked, the US Army wasn't killing any Long Islanders."
I fear God, love my religion and love my country, and as far as I am concerned, radical, violent or otherwise insane Muslims do not stand for the beliefs, principles and traditions of any of those three.
Edited on Sep 16, 2010 at 2:32amSep '10
Re: Cartoonist Gives Up Life, and So Does the West
Ah, now I understand. You're a moderate Muslim and I blithely ignored you. That does make me look a little silly. Forgive me, Humza.
But let's stay focused on Molly Norris. This story is going to make Islam in general look very bad. If they can slap a fatwa on Molly (of all people), they can slap a fatwa on anyone, anywhere in the world. And they mean business. Occasionally one of their targets gets murdered.
In the current social and political climate, this story is the worst possible PR for Islam. You have to agree with me on that.
Edited on Sep 16, 2010 at 2:42amJun '10
Re: Cartoonist Gives Up Life, and So Does the West
Humza Ahmad: Second, Ricochet's members are sharp, educated and knowledgeable. But many members seem to have done very little actual research into all of the Muslim mosques and organizations in the US that preach moderation and peace. In fact, after Dr. Savage posted about Dr. Jasser's work, subsequent comments in other conversations made it seem as if no one had read the post.
I'd love to hear what others have to say on this
Guilty as charged. I have been glib about "the myth of the moderate Muslim." Still, my expectation has been that, like Code Pink ("Not in Our Name!) on the left or the Tea Party on the right, dissenters will refuse to be ignored. Given the numerous atrocities, up to and including the threat to Molly Norris, I just can't understand the lack of passion of a community that has been unjustly associated through religious identification. The National Mall is available for thousands of American Muslims to be seen and heard.
Edited on Sep 16, 2010 at 4:42amAug '10
Re: Cartoonist Gives Up Life, and So Does the West
Humza,
Claire indicated you're a pious & practicing Muslim. You've mentioned your fear of G-d and love for your religion and country. For brevity I'll use the term Sharia Law to describe the requirements of Islam of it's followers. I appreciate there's a lot of lost nuance. A hypothetical question:
1) If Sharia Law was at odds with US law over a particular issue in which there was no discretion, which would you follow?
2) If Sharia Law required you to put someone to death, surely as a devout follower you are required to do this? How/why is not doing this different to not praying 5 times, not giving Zakat etc?
(Aside, this is an effort to understand the fundamentals, it's not an attack or condemnation)
Sep '10
Re: Cartoonist Gives Up Life, and So Does the West
The case of Molly Norris is a perfect example of the thing I find most disturbing about Islam – the tentacle-like reach of Islamofascists and their fatwas. The simple fact that an innocent American woman has been specifically marked for death by intolerant foreigners is beyond outrageous – it is positively horrific.
And it's bound to have a ripple effect in Molly's community. Think of her family, her friends, and her co-workers. Are they going to think any better of Islam because of this? I seriously doubt it. If there are any peaceful, moderate Muslims in her community, whatever good impression they may have made has now been destroyed at a single stroke. And I honestly believe that is a secondary intended effect of a fatwa. It keeps moderate Muslims marginalized and it reminds everyone – Muslim and non-Muslim, alike – who is really in charge.
Edited on Sep 16, 2010 at 5:38amJul '10
Re: Cartoonist Gives Up Life, and So Does the West
Humza Ahmad:
Ricochet's members are sharp, educated and knowledgeable. But many members seem to have done very little actual research into all of the Muslim mosques and organizations in the US that preach moderation and peace.Edited on Sep 16 at 02:22 am
I admit, I have not done much research, relying instead on the works of The Investigative Project on Terrorism and the like which tell us that 80% of the mosques in the US are under the sway of radical imams. If I am wrong in doing so, perhaps Mr Ahmad can give me a list of mosques where I could go and see for myself. By the way, I do speak Arabic.
Edited on Sep 16, 2010 at 6:18amAug '10
Re: Cartoonist Gives Up Life, and So Does the West
"It seems the Left has given up the fight because the Right has taken it up. For the same reasons many conservatives support Sarah Palin only because they hate her enemies, liberals seem to have completely shut off their criticism of radical Islam. The American Left hates radical Islam's greatest and most formidable enemy: the American Right." Sounds perfectly plausible to me, Humza. It also used to be that the Left could lump "Muslim Fundamentalists" together with "Christian Fundamentalists", and I wonder if the fact that they used to do so contributed to the Leftist disgust over the Rushdie fatwa that Claire remembers from her Oxford days. (Claire, Balliol had its own turtle? Atrocious name aside, that's so cute!)
Re: Cartoonist Gives Up Life, and So Does the West
Actually, forgive me, Midget--she was a tortoise, not a turtle. And why is the name atrocious? Rosa Luxemburg was an extraordinary figure. If there's anyone to lionize in the Annals of the Left, surely it was she.
Sep '10
Re: Cartoonist Gives Up Life, and So Does the West
Pilgrim
Given the numerous atrocities, up to and including the threat to Molly Norris, I just can't understand the lack of passion of a community that has been unjustly associated through religious identification. The National Mall is available for thousands of American Muslims to be seen and heard.
That's a damn good point. If moderate Muslims really want to strike back against the negative stereotyping, than they have to come out in force. Think of the headline: A Million Muslims March for Molly (I love alliteration).
If they can organize something on that scale, it will demolish once and for all the idea that a moderate Muslim is only a "myth."
The point is, they must show that they are willing to put their own necks on the line by challenging the radical Imams and daring them to issue a million fatwas.
Edited on Sep 16, 2010 at 5:54amAug '10
Re: Cartoonist Gives Up Life, and So Does the West
"If there are any peaceful, moderate Muslims in her community, whatever good impression they may have made has now been destroyed at a single stroke. And I honestly believe that is a secondary intended effect of a fatwa. It keeps moderate Muslims marginalized and it reminds everyone – Muslim and non-Muslim, alike – who is really in charge." Also an astute point, David. It's another remider that moderate Muslims who speak out will face risks from the extremists of the sort that no moderate Christian, for example, would face from Christian extremists. But at the same time, the very fact that moderate Muslims face such risks from their brethren makes it all the more important that they do speak out more loudly than they have so far. Between that and the media preference for "moderates" who are just shills for the radicals, it's not going to be an easy task, but it's one that needs doing. And I fear that while Dr Jasser is a good start, he's not enough just by himself.
Aug '10
Re: Cartoonist Gives Up Life, and So Does the West
Claire, forgive me. I was mixing up names again, a problem I often have. I had misremembered Julius and Ethel Rosenburg as Julius and Rosa Luxemburg, and so I had thought they'd named the poor tortoise after a spy who had helped pass the Soviets arms information. Now I realize my mistake, and I just read the Wikipedia entry on Rosa Luxemburg. You're right, far from the worst name you could give to a poor, denseless tortoise. At least Rosa seemed to be a firm believer in the right to dissent from the party line.
Sep '10
Re: Cartoonist Gives Up Life, and So Does the West
You make an excellent point, yourself, Midge. When celebrity-like "moderate Muslims" turn out to be dangerous frauds fronting for extremist organizations, that does an incalculable amount of damage to the image of honest, moderate Muslims everywhere. Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf (of GZM infamy) may be the worst of the lot. The man's insincerity is plain to all – except the gullible MSM.
Sep '10
Re: Cartoonist Gives Up Life, and So Does the West
Claire Berlinski
Actually, forgive me, Midget--she was a tortoise, not a turtle. And why is the name atrocious? Rosa Luxemburg was an extraordinary figure. If there's anyone to lionize in the Annals of the Left, surely it was she.
Oh, Balliol could've done much better. They could've named the tortoise "Fanny Kaplan." Now that is hardcore.