Can Catholics Support the Ryan Plan?
That is the question raised by this blog post over at Commonweal. Here's the crux of the argument:
Similarly, while there may be a great deal of legitimate diversity of opinion concerning how best to promote the well being of the poorest, surely (on the magisterium’s view of its own authority) there is no legitimate diversity of opinion concerning the mandate to structure social policy toward that end. Thus, a Catholic politician who said that he was structuring social policy precisely because government has no obligation towards the poorest, could not be said to differ from the Church on a matter of mere prudential judgment.
There's plenty of room to argue the merits and effects of the plan, and a snide reference to the "debunked supply-side logic of self-funding tax cuts and the associated trickle-down prosperity" shows we are operating on a completely divergent set of economic assumptions here.
The more interesting claim is the assertion that the burden of proof falls on defenders of the plan to demonstrate that it is "consistent with the preferential option for the poor" or else:
In the absence of evidence to the contrary, we should simply interpret the plan as intending to do what it does: improve the situation of the best off and then making up for that (and, in addition, reducing the debt over the long term) at the almost exclusive expense of some of the most vulnerable. And such an intent runs contrary to the principles of Catholic social teaching -- it does not reflect the prudential application of those principles.
I'm curious what my fellow Catholic members make of this latter claim. Is Mr. Peñalver correct about Catholic social teaching, and our disagreement with him (presuming you disagree) is purely on prudential economic grounds? Or is he mistaken about Catholic social teaching as well?
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Jan '11
Re: Can Catholics Support the Ryan Plan?
Plenty wrong here.
There are multiple problems with the details of his analysis. But let's get to the question of Catholic social teaching, which is defined by the "preferential option for the poor." This analysis fails to address the most important detail: the existing system is unsustainable. If we don't do something, it's all going to crash anyway, the poor going down first. Ryan is trying to save the safety net.
Oct '10
Re: Can Catholics Support the Ryan Plan?
I agree with the above commentator. It seems utterly reductionistic thinking to argue that something is against or in line with a "preferential option for the poor" based on simply whether it increases or decreases spending on the safety net.
Jun '10
Re: Can Catholics Support the Ryan Plan?
He's wrong for a much simpler reason. Jesus taught us "give to God what is God's and to Caesar what is Caesar's"
We are called to be our brothers keepers. Blessed are the poor. Etc., etc. Certainly it is a vital part of the foundation of Catholic doctrine.
But we means us. Not the government. Charity is our responsibility and Catholic doctrine does not allow is to dump that role on government.
Jun '10
Re: Can Catholics Support the Ryan Plan?
StickerShock: He's wrong for a much simpler reason. Jesus taught us "give to God what is God's and to Caesar what is Caesar's"
We are called to be our brothers keepers. Blessed are the poor. Etc., etc. Certainly it is a vital part of the foundation of Catholic doctrine.
But we means us. Not the government. Charity is our responsibility and Catholic doctrine does not allow is to dump that role on government. · Apr 18 at 3:25pm
Amen! Couldn't have said it any better myself. Commonweal is making a grossly irresponsible statement.
And if all else fails, what K.C. said is about as sensible as what can be stated. If we can't pay for it, then it all collapses. Maybe this whole mess is actually an opening for providing for the poor the way it should be, by their own brothers and sisters, rather than by Big Brother.
Signed,
Agitated Catholic
Aug '10
Re: Can Catholics Support the Ryan Plan?
StickerShock: He's wrong for a much simpler reason. Jesus taught us "give to God what is God's and to Caesar what is Caesar's"
We are called to be our brothers keepers. Blessed are the poor. Etc., etc. Certainly it is a vital part of the foundation of Catholic doctrine.
But we means us. Not the government. Charity is our responsibility and Catholic doctrine does not allow is to dump that role on government. · Apr 18 at 3:25pm
Exactly.
What do you think will happen when, not if, US borrowing costs skyrocket?
The current budget priorities are, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, everything else.
When we can no longer borrow money the first to be jettisoned will be Defense (already happening), Medicaid, then other support to the 'poor', then Veterans, followed by Medicare then Social Security.
The social safety net that altruistic Christians have allowed to be foisted on the rest of America will crumble like a moth eaten garment.
Like Thatcher said, "The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money."
Edited on April 19, 2011 at 1:33amJul '10
Re: Can Catholics Support the Ryan Plan?
I guess it depends upon what you consider yourself to be first: an American or a Catholic?
I thought we got past that with John F. Kennedy.
Look, I am a Christian. But I also understand that it's the the Constitution of the United States of America which insures my freedom of belief. Let's not have the tail wagging the dog.
Re: Can Catholics Support the Ryan Plan?
Oh, balderdash. No one can even entertain such an argument unless he's engaging in willful ignorance of recent American history.
Reagan cut taxes, reduced the growth of government, and peeled back regulations--ignoring, I might add, a letter on the economy by the American bishops that displayed a really wonderful ignorance of actual economics. The result of Reaganomics? An economic expansion that enriched the entire country, enabling women and African-Americans to make disproportionately large material advances while redefining our very notion of "poverty." (We represent the only country in the history of humankind in which people below the poverty line are much more likely to suffer from obesity than from hunger.)
As it happens, Paul Ryan is an observant Catholic. And when he says he believes his plan would spur economic growth that would benefit all, but most especially the poor, he may discomfit ignorant liberals and uninformed bishops, but he is doing nothing--nothing--to endanger his soul or compromise his conscience.
If Commonweal wishes to remain stuck in 1973, so be it. But the rest of us may in very good conscience move on.
Edited on April 19, 2011 at 2:07amRe: Can Catholics Support the Ryan Plan?
Since the Blessed (as of May 1) John Paul II rejected communism, having lived through the atrocities of its implementation, people like Mr. Peñalver have to sneak in their socialist agenda carefully. Calling conservative economics "debunked" is an attempt to ignore what J.P. II proclaimed. It's like "well, we tried it, but it didn't work, so we don't have to honor J.P. II's legacy, he would agree, considering the times."
Forget it. J.P. II was a genius, among other things. He knew that there would always be a certain percentage of poor in a capitalist society but he believed it was the best system available.
In addition, every good Catholic knows that if the left gets their way, expanding a centralized government, abortion rates will explode. Catholics who attend mass and follow the magisterium don't fall for this stuff.
Edited on April 19, 2011 at 1:50amJun '10
Re: Can Catholics Support the Ryan Plan?
I consider myself a Catholic first. I will render unto the IRS (and I rendered quite a bit last week) but my foremost loyalty belongs to a kingdom not of this world.
Re: Can Catholics Support the Ryan Plan?
Peter Robinson: Oh, balderdash. No one can even entertain such an argument unless he's engaging in willful ignorance of recent American history.
Reagan cut taxes, reduced the growth of government, and peeled back regulations--ignoring, I might add, a letter on the economy by the American bishops that displayed a really wonderful ignorance of actual economics. The result? An economic expansion that enriched the entire country, enabling women and African-Americans to make disproportionately large material advances while redefining our very notion of "poverty." (We represent the only country in the history of humankind in which people below the poverty line are much more likely to suffer from obesity than from hunger.)
Edited on Apr 18 at 04:41 pm
It is always worth remembering that it was the bishops in the 1980s who confronted the problem of the pederast priests by shifting them surreptitiously from parish to parish and diocese to diocese. The moral authority they claimed was no less flimsy than their prudence in the economic sphere.
Dec '10
Re: Can Catholics Support the Ryan Plan?
I think you have to start with first principles, and "Thou shall not covet" seems to be the primary point on which this hinges. If what's being suggested cannot be accomplished without the redistribution of others wealth and property, then advocacy of that policy is itself sinful in nature. If it was merely money that the world needed, then I think a half century of welfare states and foreign aid would have yeilded a dramatically different outcome. If money is the primary need, then you have to lump idolitry on top of covetiousness. A man cannot serve two masters. He can not serve both God and money.
Jul '10
Re: Can Catholics Support the Ryan Plan?
Joseph Stanko
I consider myself a Catholic first. I will render unto the IRS (and I rendered quite a bit last week) but my foremost loyalty belongs to a kingdom not of this world. · Apr 18 at 4:55pm
I respect that, Joseph. But when it comes to essentially secular questions of politics and economics, I tend to reject the the preachings of the religious hierarchy when they conflict with my views of economics and personal freedom.
Jun '10
Re: Can Catholics Support the Ryan Plan?
Instugator
The social safety net that altruistic Christians have allowed to be foisted on the rest of America will crumble like a moth eaten garment. · Apr 18 at 4:29pm
I agree the current safety net is unsustainable. Whenever Republicans like Ryan put forth a plan to save it they are immediately accused of secretly wanting to eliminate it altogether. Mr. Peñalver makes much of Ryan's admiration for Ayn Rand, and no doubt a true Objectivist would eliminate the safety net altogether.
I think a key, perhaps the key, to winning in 2012 is to convince moderate voters that the GOP really does want to save rather than kill the safety net. But I also suspect that many of my fellow members here actually do want to kill the safety net. Or am I wrong?
Sep '10
Re: Can Catholics Support the Ryan Plan?
Yes, Commonweal puts the burden of proof on supporters of the Ryan plan, but the Planned Parenthood funding mania of Obamacare gets a pass.
Nice.
Jul '10
Re: Can Catholics Support the Ryan Plan?
Joseph Stanko
But I also suspect that many of my fellow members here actually do want to kill the safety net. Or am I wrong? · Apr 18 at 5:17pm
No, I don't think your fellow members want to see elderly people begging in the streets or dying for lack of medical care.
But what we do want to see are policies which acknowledge that the New Deal and the Great Society were based upon compulsory Ponzi schemes. Roosevelt and Lyndon Johnson made illusory promises, for which they extracted over 13% of most Americans' earnings. Give those earnings back to people and educate them that it's their own responsibility to prepare for retirement.
Some people will still behave irresponsibly. For them, we need a fall-back safety net in order to avoid the spectacle of starvation in the streets, but it must be designed in such a way that those who do behave responsibly aren't shouldering the entire burden for the profligate.
Sep '10
Re: Can Catholics Support the Ryan Plan?
I have read the outline of the plan which is available and I can find no specific information on why this statement is true. It seems to be the main theme of all criticism. Is it true and I am just missing it?
Sep '10
Re: Can Catholics Support the Ryan Plan?
Oh and by the way, as an observant Catholic I would suggest my fellow Catholics who want to use the coercive power of government to redistribute what I have to those who have not worked for it OR who want to indebt my children to penury can stuff it. Amen.
Be charitable, do good works, but remember you cannot earn your place in heaven. It is a gift much to valuable to be earned.
Jan '11
Re: Can Catholics Support the Ryan Plan?
Excellent comments. I'm also a Catholic. The federal government programs for the poor doesn't fit with the principle of subsidiarity (matters should be handled by the smallest and most local group able to meet the need--very loose paraphrase). We have a duty to provide opportunity for people to improve their lives. Keeping federal spending at levels that will collapse our economy is not stewardship and will only increase the poor among us. That isn't social justice.
May '10
Re: Can Catholics Support the Ryan Plan?
The hard fact of the matter is that the current programs are unsustainable. We can either take a haircut now, or go over a fiscal cliff.
What would be harder on the poor, the vulnerable, the halt, the lame, the hungry, the thirsty: a cutback in social programs, or the complete collapse of the US economy?
http://www.johnnixdorf.com/PointOfNoReturn.htm
Jun '10
Re: Can Catholics Support the Ryan Plan?
Kenneth
No, I don't think your fellow members want to see elderly people begging in the streets or dying for lack of medical care. · Apr 18 at 5:30pm
I never said that, Kenneth. There's a case to be made that private charity could meet these needs in the absence of a government safety net. That would seem to be the thrust of StickerShock's comment, that we ought to take in an elderly begger and offer to pay for his medical care out of our own pockets rather than, as Ross put it, "use the coercive power of government to redistribute" what he has.
This also reminds me of Mickey's claim in the podcast that Medicare represents a social contract that essentially says "no elderly person should ever die for lack of medical care." As he sees it, under Obama's plan grandma may die because a government board denies her treatment, while under Ryan's plan grandma may die because an insurance company denies her treatment. Both violate the contract.