California Proposition 19. I Was Swayed By One Sentence on Talk Radio.
Proposition 19, also known as the Regulate, Control and Tax Cannabis Act of 2010, is a California ballot proposition which will be on the November 2, 2010 California statewide ballot. I don't smoke pot. And I take great pains to avoid people who do. My grandpa "Pepe" used to say, "it makes you "estupid." I think he was right.
But.....after Bill Handel made his case this morning on KFI AM 640 here in Los Angeles, I am now voting FOR proposition 19. If it wins, I will cringe at news coverage of dirty hippie celebrations that will likely occur in Rob Long's part of town but I will endure that for one reason.
Prop 19 would be a blow to the Mexican Drug Cartels. I will support almost anything that would drive them out of business or at least throw a wrench into their operations. Sure they can still smuggle tax free pot into the country, but as Handel said this morning, "when's the last time you heard of a murderous cartel smuggling tax free booze into this country?"
They're destroying my second favorite country down there and we have run out of bullets. This is potentially a powerful weapon against them. Let's do it. It's humane. And I want my favorite taco place back. My second message is don't be a dope, get off the dope.
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Sep '10
Re: California Proposition 19. I Was Swayed By One Sentence on Talk Radio.
California has 12% of the U.S. population and 32% of the welfare recipients. It has already become loserville. I don't want to pay for anymore people who can't get it together. Legalizing marijuana to weaken drug gangs seems like a weak arguement. We could adopt sharia law and avoid terrorist attacks too. I don't think domestic policy should be adopted to assuage or neuter foreign criminals.
May '10
Re: California Proposition 19. I Was Swayed By One Sentence on Talk Radio.
Prohibition might not be an entirely useful comparison, but I would expect results somewhat similar to whatever happened to bootleggers when Prohibition was repealed.
No, tax-free booze isn't commonly smuggled into the U.S. today. But illegal marijuana is a long-established and prosperous industry. I doubt it will diminish quickly in California, especially since weed is still illegal in other states.
And now there's a whole new market. Kids from other states will buy it there and try to bring it back with them.
Also, I expect the California government will try to regulate growing of marijuana plants, and thousands of Californians will ignore them. On the bright side, perhaps your police can rely on those fines for revenue and won't rely so heavily on speeding ticket quotas.
May '10
Re: California Proposition 19. I Was Swayed By One Sentence on Talk Radio.
Fully agree with Joe.
Never smoked it. Never plan to. Frankly disgusted by it. Don't care a whit if others want to use it. The sooner conservatives give up silly issues like this they can put more emphasis on the important stuff.
Although the "regulate, control, tax" part kind of sucks. How about just "decriminalize"?
Edited on Sep 28, 2010 at 10:34pmJun '10
Re: California Proposition 19. I Was Swayed By One Sentence on Talk Radio.
Remember the auto workers that were caught drinking & smoking dope on their lunch break, the ones that got fired? Why do you suppose Chrysler felt the need to respond with:
Our customers can be assured that the Jefferson North Assembly Plant has implemented a comprehensive quality system for all of the vehicles it builds. This system has redundant controls that do not allow a single person's error to result in a quality problem flowing to the customer. In fact, early warranty results indicate that the quality performance from the launch of the new Grand Cherokee may be the best launch in the history of Chrysler for vehicle reliability. It is unfortunate that the actions of a few people have called into question the reputation of more than 51,000 very proud, hard-working Chrysler Group employees, grateful that the American and Canadian taxpayers gave us a second chance. We take that responsibility very seriously and will work to restore the public's faith.
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...and will passing Prop 19 make you want to buy a new car built in CA, as opposed to NC or TN? Or if you're a manufacturer, want to build your cars in CA?
Re: California Proposition 19. I Was Swayed By One Sentence on Talk Radio.
I'm curious to hear where proponents of legalizing marijuana would come down in the debate of legalizing other illicit drugs. Should we also legalize cocaine, heroin, LSD? Or are these drugs illegal for good reason?
And who's going to regulate the production and sale of marijuana if it's legalized? Are we going to need an entirely new bureaucracy to do that? How will they enforce strict standards of production?
Lastly, how will legalizing marijuana affect our culture -- especially our youth? Sure, kids can already get it pretty readily, but the kids who are getting their hands on it are impulsive and risk-taking in the first place. If the stigma of using an illegal substance is removed, will its use become more widespread?
May '10
Re: California Proposition 19. I Was Swayed By One Sentence on Talk Radio.
This debate reminds me of Thomas Aquinas's advice to a ruler about dealing with prostitution. Aquinas teaches that an unenforceable law is not a law. It lacks any true compelling force. Laws exist for preservation of the civil order and the common good. Even if a practice is evil or harmful, we must consider whether criminalizing it is ultimately necessary to protect the civil order and common good. In light of this ruler's problems enforcing laws against prostitution, St. Thomas recommended a limited legalization accompanied with regulations which both (a) financially discouraged people from soliciting prostitutes and (b) fostered strong social stigma for those who engaged in the activity. In the case of marijuana, I am not sure what necessity there is to preserve the social order by criminal prosecution. In this respect, I am for legalization. The hit the drug gangs will take is part of this. I fear, however, IF marijuana is truly immoral ( something I am not at all sure about), there will be no social stigma to encourage virtuous action.
Jun '10
Re: California Proposition 19. I Was Swayed By One Sentence on Talk Radio.
That's what I had been thinking, but hearing a perspective from someone in the fish and game warden world convinced me that the Mexican cartels aren't going to pack up their massive grow operations in our state forests over this prop. As Aaron mentions, it will still be illegal in our bordering states, California will continue to be a source for the cartel crops grown unfettered by any serious attempt by the government to rout them out for distribution elsewhere, as well as remaining a destination for meth and their other south of the border exports. This isn't an answer to our cartel problem, but I'll likely vote for it anyway, prohibition and criminalizing stupid behavior just doesn't seem to be achieving any of the desired ends.
May '10
Re: California Proposition 19. I Was Swayed By One Sentence on Talk Radio.
I believe the full legalization of both the production and exchange of all drugs would be a prudent if audacious policy. Imprisonment and law enforcement costs would plummet and police and juridical resources could be reallocated against violent crimes. The price of drugs would fall, reducing the need of addicts to commit crimes in order to finance their addiction. The quantity of drugs supplied would fall at the new lower prices and peaceful competition could resume among legitimate drug distributors.
May '10
Re: California Proposition 19. I Was Swayed By One Sentence on Talk Radio.
Diane Ellis, Ed.: I'm curious to hear where proponents of legalizing marijuana would come down in the debate of legalizing other illicit drugs. Should we also legalize cocaine, heroin, LSD? Or are these drugs illegal for good reason?
Are we going to need an entirely new bureaucracy? How will they enforce strict standards of production?
Lastly, how will legalizing marijuana affect our culture -- especially our youth? Sure, kids can already get it pretty readily, but the kids who are getting their hands on it are impulsive and risk-taking in the first place. If the stigma of using an illegal substance is removed, will its use become more widespread? · Sep 28 at 10:52pm
Yes, yes and yes. As Katie says, disapproval is not an excuse for legislation. The only worry is that they will form a bureaucracy to regulate its production. What would be the point? But they'll do it anyway. Sigh.
So kids can't currently raid the liquor cabinet, or sneak some Boone's Farm? I hate to use Europe as an example, but they drink far more responsibly.
Intrigued by LSD, but scared what I'd see.
May '10
Re: California Proposition 19. I Was Swayed By One Sentence on Talk Radio.
Diane, With regard to its use, I believe its the case that the demand for drugs tends to be inelastic, meaning the price of drugs is generally unresponsive to changes in the demand for drugs. Hence, when the price of drugs falls as a result of legalization, the quantity of drugs demanded at the new price will either increase insignificantly or remain the same. The inelasticity of the demand for drugs increases when its addictiveness increases.
May '10
Re: California Proposition 19. I Was Swayed By One Sentence on Talk Radio.
Diane, A drug bureaucracy is only necessary if we plan on banning or regulating the production and exchange of drugs. Full decriminalization would avoid such a bureaucracy and I believe its the only policy congruent with a free market.
May '10
Re: California Proposition 19. I Was Swayed By One Sentence on Talk Radio.
Correction: the demand for drugs is inelastic, meaning the quantity of drugs demanded is generally unresponsive to changes in the price of drugs.
Re: California Proposition 19. I Was Swayed By One Sentence on Talk Radio.
Kennedy Smith
So kids can't currently raid the liquor cabinet, or sneak some Boone's Farm? I hate to use Europe as an example, but they drink far more responsibly.
Intrigued by LSD, but scared what I'd see. · Sep 29 at 12:47am
There's nothing wrong with using Europe as an example when it's a good example. Northern Europe is a terrible example. (Seen the streets of London at closing time lately?) Southern Europe is an excellent example. The French and the Italians seem to have it figured out.
Re. the heavy hallucinogens, have you read Doors of Perception?
May '10
Re: California Proposition 19. I Was Swayed By One Sentence on Talk Radio.
How much marijuana is imported? I was under thre impression that most was home-grown.
May '10
Re: California Proposition 19. I Was Swayed By One Sentence on Talk Radio.
According to the Cato Institute, Portugal's decriminalization program has been a success story. The institute posted this article on its homepage a few days ago: http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html
May '10
Re: California Proposition 19. I Was Swayed By One Sentence on Talk Radio.
Mesquito, The bulk of marijuana is certainly imported from overseas producers. It's production requires certain climatic conditions that are more difficult to establish here but are readily available in South America.
May '10
Re: California Proposition 19. I Was Swayed By One Sentence on Talk Radio.
I'll accept that. It's just that I had ideas of vast indoor plantations. Plus I considered the advantages, to smugglers, of more compact contraband.
May '10
Re: California Proposition 19. I Was Swayed By One Sentence on Talk Radio.
I think that production for mass distribution in the US is too risky given the law enforcement presence.
Jun '10
Re: California Proposition 19. I Was Swayed By One Sentence on Talk Radio.
Cocaine and Meth would seem to be the big money makers for the cartels. They are both less bulky, producing much greater revenue with less volume of product, and much more addictive, again producing much greater revenue, but because of increasing demand. I would bet the cartels could hardly care less about marijuana. I also find the claim that marijuana leads to other drug use to be questionable. The fact that procuring this drug currently forces one to deal with the nefarious underground element which is likely to also be distributing cocaine and meth is quite possibly more of a factor in the stepping stone theory than the drug, marijuana, is itself. I am in favor of legalizing pot and treating it just as we do liquor.
Jun '10
Re: California Proposition 19. I Was Swayed By One Sentence on Talk Radio.
P.S. on #19
This will, however, have next to zero effect on eliminating the Mexican drug cartels, for the exact reasons I stated in the first two sentences. Therefore, I don't agree with the reasoning behind Joe's conclusion.