Best-value American Universities
I recently had the pleasure of visiting Hillsdale College and meeting Dr Rahe.
It was a thrilling experience to be among an entire community of people who see the world as I do! My student guide was an impressive young man, and filled me with hope for the young generation. I'd love to send my daughter there, but there is no way she is going to want to attend Hillsdale. She has always lived in The Big City and can't imagine being out in the sticks for four years, and is not at all averse to schools dominated by liberalism. She'll major in a hard science anyway.
I'm starting this conversation to try to find out what alternatives to Hillsdale the Ricochet members have to recommend. And I mean 'best-value' in both senses - - - the cost of attendance and also whether the core values of the USA are taught at all.
Living in Japan, we've sort of made up our minds that Stanford (travel convenience for us and reputation) is the only college we would be willing to borrow a lot of money for our child to attend. If she doesn't get accepted there, we'll go for the best financial aid package weighed against the academic rep.
What schools did you or will you encourage your children to consider?
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Jun '10
Re: Best-value American Universities
As a performing arts major, my daughter's experience really doesn't translate to what the typical applicant will face. The programs were audition-based, and the acceptance rates were much smaller than for elite schools like the ivies. (Some lower than 2%.) The academic record was largely irrelevant, so even at a school like Carnegie Mellon, which is very focused on strong stats from most applicants, a great academic record will not earn performering arts applicants a spot or scholarship money. It's all about the talent and whether they need another tall, blonde soprano or another muscular, black dancer. They cast a class, so to speak.
I was quite impressed with a small school in Allentown, Pennsylvania. Mulhenberg. It was the only non-audition college to which she applied. Strong academic focus, excellent arts opportuniteis, not shy about expressions of faith (1/3 Catholic, 1/3 Jewish, 1/3 Protestant) and incredibly generous with merit-based scholarhships. It would have been a wonderful bargain. But my girl craved NYC. Allentown itself is pretty grim, but the campus was lovely and lively.
Apr '11
Re: Best-value American Universities
Thanks for the info, SS.
All colleges "cast" the incoming class, but they refer to it as "sculpting" the class. Stanford 'confessed' in the official campus tour info session that after accepting 'legacies' (children of alumni), athletes, under-represented minorities considered holistically who have shown they can succeed despite adversity, musicians who can fill-out the university orchestras and bands, a quota of international applicant whiz-kids (who are not eligible for financial assistance and therefore pay full retail price), etc., the actual acceptance rate for a 'normal' merely academically excellent applicant is really only 1%, not the official 7%.
Nov '10
Re: Best-value American Universities
If she's going into hard science, then the best place is probably MIT. Students pretty much stand or fall on their own ability there, and they have a basic policy that if you can get in, you can go, whatever the financial status of your parents. (It was actually less expensive for my daughter to go there than to a Canadian university). Certainly they have some left and hard left professors (Noam Chomsky being the most egregious), but the big fights are over much more interesting things, like the origins of the universe.
Apr '11
Re: Best-value American Universities
I came to the same conclusion myself. It's at the top of my wish list, Stanford is ahead for other family members due to nearness to our home in Japan.
Interesting fact about MIT: in recent years enrollment of undergrad women has shot up to 43%. Still, the FAQ on the student body web page still asks "are there any women students at MIT?"
MIT also has an amazing grading policy. Here's the URL >
http://mitadmissions.org/wiki/Freshman-Pass-No-Record
May '11
Re: Best-value American Universities
The best education comes from the School of Hard Knocks but the tuition there can be higher than Harvard. Financial aid is offered but the terms are variable. Their admission standards do promote diversity however.
Edited on Aug 8, 2011 at 2:32pmNov '10
Re: Best-value American Universities
Harvey Mudd. Though I understand it's even more difficult to get into than MIT or CalTech. She would also have access to arguably the most erudite, conservative faculty in the world (the only rival would be Hillsdale) at Claremont McKenna College.
Or she should just try for Claremont McKenna. It's a superb school in its own right -- and students there also have access to Harvey Mudd...
Re: Best-value American Universities
A couple of ideas come to mind -- neither ideal for someone supremely talented in the hard sciences. One is the University of Dallas, which has a fine curriculum and a devoted faculty. Another is Thomas Aquinas College outside Los Angeles. I once lectured there and spent a week attending classes. I found it impressive.
The big-name schools (I attended Cornell, then graduated from Yale) have vast resources, and an entrepreneurial young person can sniff out who the good professors are. But they are, to an ever increasing degree, moral cesspools -- not just indifferent to moral questions but, in practice, actively hostile to self-control in the sexual sphere.
Let me add that what happened to the lacrosse-players at Duke could happen to any young man not street-smart who wanders into any one of these schools.
Let me make a case against Stanford. The weather is too nice. It is all too easy to while one's time away playing tennis and engaging in less salubrious pursuits. California is, after all, the Land of the Lotus-Eaters. Consider Governor Moonbeam.
Re: Best-value American Universities
Robert Lux: Harvey Mudd. Though I understand it's even more difficult to get into than MIT or CalTech. She would also have access to arguably the most erudite, conservative faculty in the world (the only rival would be Hillsdale) at Claremont McKenna College.
Or she should just try for Claremont McKenna. It's a superb school in its own right -- and students there also have access to Harvey Mudd...
· Aug 8 at 3:51pm
If it has to be the left coast, this is not a bad idea. Charlie, I could name the faculty....
Apr '11
Re: Best-value American Universities
I wouldn't recommend spending a lot of money on an undergraduate degree. The ROI just isn't there. If your daughter decides to go to pursue a PhD, MBA, MD or law degree, it may be worth it at that point. Of the top of my head, it might be worth looking into a school like the University of Washington since location is a large factor for you.
Out-of-state: $37,439
Out-of-state: $25,601
For comparison sake, here's Stanford:
Looks like you can save about $13K in tuition/$17K overall the first year and would save more in outgoing years if she can achieve residency status.
I only picked UW as an example. There are likely some other less expensive universities on the west coast you could look at as well.
Apr '11
Re: Best-value American Universities
FYI, here are the links I used to get the tuition data...
Stanford University
University of Washington
Edited on Aug 8, 2011 at 4:05pmMay '10
Re: Best-value American Universities
Back in the days when I matriculated, Wake Forest - my alma mater - was a fantastic buy. Tuition was a hair above $14,000.00 (no doubt assisted by the large endowment from the Reynolds tobacco fortune). Alas, they decided to keep up with the Joneses and tuition shot into the stratosphere. My kids will be encouraged to study wherever they wish within reason (although I have declared there are a number of schools for which I will not pay a dime, to my wife's disapproval). Still, I will gladly and proudly pony up tuition to send them to Wake and hope they will consider the school that I genuinely love. The core curriculum and engaged faculty are excellent for any student interested in the liberal arts writ large (case in point, students may not declare a major until the end of their sophomore year).
Sep '10
Re: Best-value American Universities
Check out the science teaching at VMI - Virginia Military Institute.
Mar '11
Re: Best-value American Universities
I am a Princeton man, through and through. And I want my children to go there. I can give all kinds of good reasons (Robert George! Vast resources!) but when it comes down to it:
A student who *wants* a great education can get it at most schools in America.
The typical student will do better in a better school - it is not as hard to find the courses, achieve access to the best minds.
And a student who wants to waste their time can do it anywhere - but at a place like MIT, they won't make it past the first midterm.
Jun '11
Re: Best-value American Universities
Well, it IS in the sticks but another sensible small private college, with low tuition, is Grove City College in western Pennsylvania. I think they share with Hillsdale the rare distinction of taking no federal money including federal student loans, in order to be able to operate independently.
Edited on Aug 8, 2011 at 4:46pmMar '11
Re: Best-value American Universities
I am a contrarian, and my children share this trait. We just don't do things merely because others are doing them.
So I am not worried about the environment of any given school as much as most people should be.
Dec '10
Re: Best-value American Universities
Education is wasted on those who lack any experience by which to judge the veracity or value of what they are receiving. I am thankful that my oldest wants to be a marine (I told her that's what ROTC is for) and the youngest is lovely enough to marry well.
But that comment adds nothing to your consideration. My real opinion is that what is put into the education by the student determines much of the outcome. What the student puts into it is determined largely by what is learned in the family before attending university. Since you are a Ricochet member, I'm sure your children can succeed wherever they land.
Edited on Aug 8, 2011 at 4:50pmMay '11
Re: Best-value American Universities
I got my undergraduate degree from Duke, my sons from Wake Forest and Davidson. Of those three, I would say that Davidson provides the most rigorous education and more than adequate exposure to influential people. My wife was a more talented student than I, but her family could not afford any 4 year school and she and they were smart enough not to borrow money for it. She went to her local junior college, got an associate degree in nursing, moved to Durham, NC, where she met a very unambitious but lucky student and encouraged him to go to medical school. Instead of being content with being a doctor's wife, she eventually got an undergraduate and master's degree and now is nationally known in her field of expertise. She commands a salary that allows her deadbeat husband to spend his time fishing for big redfish and posting on Ricochet. She would say that a junior college degree can be the best value in American education if you know what you want to do with it.
Edited on Aug 8, 2011 at 4:56pmAug '10
Re: Best-value American Universities
Neither my parents, nor my siblings have bachelors degrees. I attended the USAF Academy, graduating in 1988. USAFA was my first choice and since I was a trailblazer, it is fortunate I was accepted there (I neglected to apply to schools where I could use my ROTC scholarship money.) This year it is ranked #10 in the nation by Forbes. US News and World Report does not rank military academies.
My eldest son attends the US Merchant Marine Academy. In his case, we divided up the universe of colleges into thirds. Tier 1 were service academies with USMMA being number 1. Tier 2 were colleges anywhere in the country, that would further his desire (at the time) to study Maritime Law. It included Tulane and Vanderbilt. Tier 3 were schools in Louisiana where he could apply both his TOPS scholarship and a ROTC scholarship. His only constraint was that I would not pay for his college education.
My wife has two degrees from the National University of Singapore. You might look there, it is 7 hours flight from Japan and is as prestigious as Oxford. My wife and her family (so far) have graduated from there.
Dec '10
Re: Best-value American Universities
I recently heard a conservative commentator extolling Pepperdine. I have no idea about the expense or whether the science curriculum is respected, but it would meet your west coast location requirements and I suspect it might meet your desire for exposure to prominent conservative thinkers.
I also want to second Instugator's plug for the USAF Academy. I didn't attend, but was fortunate enough to have instructors from there teach a few of my engineering classes at CU Colorado Springs. They were the best.
May '10
Re: Best-value American Universities
Bite your tongue, Dukie!