Bernard Lewis on What Might Go Right
The Wall Street Journal is running a fascinating interview with Bernard Lewis. I'd like to quote the whole thing, but since I can't, here are two passages in particular that really stand out.
Mr. Lewis points me to a letter written by France's ambassador in Istanbul shortly before the French revolution. The French government was frustrated by how long the ambassador was taking to move ahead with some negotiations. So he pushed back: "Here, it is not like it is in France, where the king is sole master and does as he pleases. Here, the sultan has to consult."
In Middle Eastern history "consultation is the magic word. It occurs again and again in classical Islamic texts. It goes back to the time of the Prophet himself," says Mr. Lewis.
What it meant practically was that political leaders had to cut deals with various others—the leaders of the merchant guild, the craft guild, the scribes, the land owners and the like. Each guild chose its own leaders from within. "The rulers," says Mr. Lewis, "even the great Ottoman sultans, had to consult with these different groups in order to get things done."
And this one:
"My own feeling is that the greatest defect of Islam and the main reason they fell behind the West is the treatment of women," he says. He makes the powerful point that repressive homes pave the way for repressive governments. "Think of a child that grows up in a Muslim household where the mother has no rights, where she is downtrodden and subservient. That's preparation for a life of despotism and subservience. It prepares the way for an authoritarian society," he says.
I met Bernard Lewis several months ago. It's customary to note how deeply learned he is, and it's customary for a damned good reason. Really this is worth reading in full.
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Jul '10
Re: Bernard Lewis on What Might Go Right
Read it last night, and bookmarked it for return visits. Bernard Lewis does candid and insightful very well. On my return home after 9/11, I pulled his dusty books down off the shelf and reread them with new attentiveness.
I think Ottoman consultations are, to some extent, replaced by Marx inspired command and control institutions since the fall of the Empire in 1922-3 and the rise of the totalitarian Marxist states in the same decade. Certainly the Muslim Brotherhood finds Marxist approaches instructive.
Having read drips and drabs over the years, I am in the market for a proper and candid survey of Ottoman history at the moment to provide a proper and authoritative overview. Recommendations, Ricos?
May '10
Re: Bernard Lewis on What Might Go Right
Peter referenced Lewis a while back with a similar point: that Egypt craved a just government more than democracy or freedom per se and that a "consultative model" might be more suitable than Western-style democracy, given the culture.
But isn't it true that the Muslim Brotherhood is most strong among the class of people that would most likely be the "consultees"--not just the imams, but also the lawyers and doctors and such?
Re: Bernard Lewis on What Might Go Right
Sisyphus: Read it last night, and bookmarked it for return visits. Bernard Lewis does candid and insightful very well. On my return home after 9/11, I pulled his dusty books down off the shelf and reread them with new attentiveness.
I think Ottoman consultations are, to some extent, replaced by Marx inspired command and control institutions since the fall of the Empire in 1922-3 and the rise of the totalitarian Marxist states in the same decade. Certainly the Muslim Brotherhood finds Marxist approaches instructive.
Having read drips and drabs over the years, I am in the market for a proper and candid survey of Ottoman history at the moment to provide a proper and authoritative overview. Recommendations, Ricos? · Apr 2 at 11:44am
Bill Walsh! Bill Walsh! This is a question for Bill. I shall summon him.
Obviously, I do recommend Bernard Lewis.
Jul '10
Re: Bernard Lewis on What Might Go Right
Had George W Bush's administration thought to consult Bernard Lewis before engaging in nation building, the history of the past decade might have unfolded very differently.
Instead, Bush accepted Condoleeza Rice's profoundly uninformed theory, based upon her putative expertise on the Cold War, that all people, in all places, at all times, simply yearn to breathe free and that with a little help from the United States, even the most benighted of Islamic cesspits can be miraculously transformed into Vermont.
Mar '11
Re: Bernard Lewis on What Might Go Right
"...most benighted of Islamic cesspits can be miraculously transformed into Vermont."
I do not think that Dr. Rice would wish this onto anyone.
In the news (March 24, 2011)"
Vt. House Passes Single-Payer Health Care Bill
State-Run Health Care System Now One Step Closer
Jul '10
Re: Bernard Lewis on What Might Go Right
Bernard Lewis was consulted, one of many, but Rice was more in alignment with the pathologies of DC and her advice appeared more virtuous at the time. Bush, like most Americans, saw tyranny and rejected it. A fine and totally American impulse. If Paul Rahe is right, this round of Islamic revival may run its course in a generation or two and then the region opens to new reforms and modernizations. Historically, Sharia has had a knack of defying such predictions.
Jul '10
Re: Bernard Lewis on What Might Go Right
Ioannis: "...most benighted of Islamic cesspits can be miraculously transformed into Vermont."
I do not think that Dr. Rice would wish this onto anyone.
In the news (March 24, 2011)"
· Apr 2 at 2:10pm
Vt. House Passes Single-Payer Health Care Bill
State-Run Health Care System Now One Step Closer
Alright, alright...maybe she was thinking of Kansas.
Jul '10
Re: Bernard Lewis on What Might Go Right
Vermont was a better place at the time.
Nov '10
Re: Bernard Lewis on What Might Go Right
You don’t want to become the guy in this cartoon in which the lady is standing at the door with her date expecting to be invited in and she says, “I’d love to invite you in Howard but I need some time to digest everything you told me about the Ottoman Empire."
But if you would like to wow the ladies [you are a guy, right?] with your knowledge of the Ottoman empire, you might start with Empires of The Sand, The Struggle For Mastery In The Middle East 1789-1923 (1999) by Efraim Karsh and Inari Karsh. Probably not the definitive book but the first half of its 400 pages deals with the Ottoman Empire. Caution: It’s an interpretation that differs with some of the previous accepted wisdom.
Nov '10
Re: Bernard Lewis on What Might Go Right
Claire Berlinski, Ed.: The Wall Street Journal is running a fascinating interview with Bernard Lewis. I'd like to quote the whole thing, but since I can't, here are two passages in particular that really stand out.
In Western families the rule is that when Mother isn’t happy no one is happy. In traditional Islamic families Mother is never happy and no one cares or even notices. Sister can be made very unhappy, even dead, by father and brothers if she displeases them. Some religion that religion of peace.
Dec '10
Re: Bernard Lewis on What Might Go Right
Claire Berlinski, Ed.: The Wall Street Journal is running a fascinating interview with Bernard Lewis. ...
I think Ayaan Hirsi Ali might agree with Mr. Lewis on this.
Sep '10
Re: Bernard Lewis on What Might Go Right
David Fromkin's book "A Peace To End All Peace" doesn't suck.
Re: Bernard Lewis on What Might Go Right
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
Sisyphus: Having read drips and drabs over the years, I am in the market for a proper and candid survey of Ottoman history at the moment to provide a proper and authoritative overview. Recommendations, Ricos? · Apr 2 at 11:44am
Bill Walsh! Bill Walsh! This is a question for Bill. I shall summon him. · Apr 2 at 12:42pm
::POOF:: You rang?
À votre service, Generalissima. Off the top of my head, without my library at hand:
One-volume, general history: Osman’s Dream, Caroline Finkel.
Early history: The Ottoman Empire 1300–1650, Colin Imber.
For late Ottoman history, I'm on thinner ice. I'm not a specialist. Both Stanford Shaw’s History of the Ottoman Empire & Modern Turkey and Justin McCarthy’s The Ottoman Turks: An Introductory History to 1923 are very readable and informative. That said, both have been criticized heavily for their debt to Turkish nationalist historiography, particularly in their treatment of the Armenian genocide/massacres of WWI (Shaw’s was criticized more dramatically, in that he had his house firebombed). So with that caveat, the careful reader can still readily glean a lot of good information in a narrative form from both.
Nov '10
Re: Bernard Lewis on What Might Go Right
Kenneth: Had George W Bush's administration thought to consult Bernard Lewis before engaging in nation building, the history of the past decade might have unfolded very differently.
Instead, Bush accepted Condoleeza Rice's profoundly uninformed theory, based upon her putative expertise on the Cold War, that all people, in all places, at all times, simply yearn to breathe free and that with a little help from the United States, even the most benighted of Islamic cesspits can be miraculously transformed into Vermont. · Apr 2 at 1:06pm
Heck, why not call up Henry Kissinger while they're at it?
May '10
Re: Bernard Lewis on What Might Go Right
Scott, this is a key point. People everywhere seek justice, but they do not seek democracy. It is hard for Americans, living in a high-trust society, to comprehend, but for most people, living in low-trust societies, democracy is just an opportunity for some "other" group to grab power and screw your group. Not something to be welcomed.
As a corollary, those societies are not organized like the classic organizational charts we are so familiar with. Thus, the need for endless, undocumented consultations that are not at all apparent to visiting experts from the West. None of the important relationships are written down.
Jul '10
Re: Bernard Lewis on What Might Go Right
Bill Walsh
::POOF:: You rang?
À votre service, Generalissima. Off the top of my head, without my library at hand:
One-volume, general history: Osman’s Dream, Caroline Finkel.
Early history: The Ottoman Empire 1300–1650, Colin Imber.
For late Ottoman history, I'm on thinner ice. I'm not a specialist. Both Stanford Shaw’s History of the Ottoman Empire & Modern Turkey and Justin McCarthy’s The Ottoman Turks: An Introductory History to 1923 are very readable and informative. That said, both have been criticized heavily for their debt to Turkish nationalist historiography, particularly in their treatment of the Armenian genocide/massacres of WWI (Shaw’s was criticized more dramatically, in that he had his house firebombed). So with that caveat, the careful reader can still readily glean a lot of good information in a narrative form from both. · Apr 2 at 7:06pm
Excellent! If there is one thing the opposition, which prides itself on its scholarship, especially versus the decadent West, hates, it's when they find themselves tripped up on their history.
Cheers.
Edited on Apr 2, 2011 at 9:58pmJul '10
Re: Bernard Lewis on What Might Go Right
TeeJaw
You don’t want to become the guy in this cartoon in which the lady is standing at the door with her date expecting to be invited in and she says, “I’d love to invite you in Howard but I need some time to digest everything you told me about the Ottoman Empire."
But if you would like to wow the ladies [you are a guy, right?] with your knowledge of the Ottoman empire, you might start with Empires of The Sand, The Struggle For Mastery In The Middle East 1789-1923 (1999) by Efraim Karsh and Inari Karsh. Probably not the definitive book but the first half of its 400 pages deals with the Ottoman Empire. Caution: It’s an interpretation that differs with some of the previous accepted wisdom. · Apr 2 at 3:07pm
Thanks, I'll give it a look.
Oct '10
Re: Bernard Lewis on What Might Go Right
"Modernization . . . enormously increased the power of the state," Mr. Lewis says. "And it tended to undermine, or even destroy, those various intermediate powers which had previously limited the power of the state." This was enabled by the cunning of the Mubaraks and the Assads, paired with "modern communication, modern weapons and the modern apparatus of surveillance and repression." The result: These autocrats amassed "greater power than even the mightiest of the sultans ever had."
Reading through Lewis's article the above words jumped out at me. I have long referred to this as the Technology of Intrusion. Think IRS and Census here in the US.
The race for supremacy began with the fall of the Ottomans.
Will Islam prevail against the West? Will the West prevail against Islam?
Will the West simply be worn down by the Left, who control most of the Technologies of Intrusion, and allow Islam to prevail?
As Claire said in another context, "despair is a crime" sin?
I do not want to commit the sin of despair, so I'll end here.
Jun '10
Re: Bernard Lewis on What Might Go Right
outstripp
Scott, this is a key point. People everywhere seek justice, but they do not seek democracy.
How would you really know without taking a vote?
outstripp
... democracy is just an opportunity for some "other" group to grab power and screw your group.
It really does depend on how you define democracy, doesn't it? If you define it as you do, then I think I'm against it, too.
Edited on Apr 3, 2011 at 8:21amNov '10
Re: Bernard Lewis on What Might Go Right
Sisyphus
Thanks, I'll give it a look. · Apr 2 at 10:36pm
People who like the book agree with it’s thesis that the demise of the Ottoman empire resulted from a series of bad decisions by its leaders. Those who don’t like the book claim to smell the stench of academic turf wars. Those folks cling to the “clash of civilizations” paradigm and blame outside interference by European powers from Napoleon to beyond the end of WW I.
I think the book backs up its conclusions with historical facts and logical interpretations. Much like a Claire Berlinski book. I also like it because I think it presents the simpler of two equally plausible explanations. Occam’s Razor therefore holds it is the one most likely to be true.
By the way, the authors are my uncles and they’re leaving me their estate.
No, no, just kidding.
Besides, one of the wonderful things about America is that here you can find perfectly good used copies of this book for under five dollars. I don’t claim to understand that. I wouldn’t sell mine for the original price.
Edited on Apr 3, 2011 at 11:08am