Ban the Burqa
Those of you who contributed to the burqa debate may be interested in my conclusions. To everyone who helped me to decide where I stood, thank you again.
These bans are outrages against religious freedom and freedom of expression. They stigmatize Muslims. No modern state should be in the business of dictating what women should wear. The security arguments are spurious; there are a million ways to hide a bomb, and one hardly need wear a burqa to do so. It is not necessarily the case that the burqa is imposed upon women against their will; when it is the case, there are already laws on the books against physical coercion.
The argument that the garment is not a religious obligation under Islam is well-founded but irrelevant; millions of Muslims the world around believe that it is, and the state is not qualified to be in thebusiness of Koranic exegesis. The choice to cover one’s face is for many women a genuine expression of the most private kind of religious sentiment. To prevent them from doing so is discriminatory, persecutory, and incompatible with the Enlightenment traditions of the West. It is, moreover, cruel to demand of a woman that she reveal parts of her body that her sense of modesty compels her to cover; to such a woman, the demand is as tyrannical, humiliating, and arbitrary as the passage of a law dictating that women bare their breasts.
All true. And yet the burqa must be banned.
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Comments :
May '10
Re: Ban the Burqa
Claire - you write on page 1 of your national review essay that,
"Let’s be perfectly frank. These bans are outrages against religious freedom and freedom of expression. They stigmatize Muslims. No modern state should be in the business of dictating what women should wear."
Then on page 2 you write the following:
"And yet the burqa must be banned. All forms of veiling must be, if not banned, strongly discouraged and stigmatized."
These opinions are, as they say, mutually exclusive. I have not committed an error, have I?
Re: Ban the Burqa
I'm arguing that banning it is an evil--but the lesser of two.
May '10
Re: Ban the Burqa
You frame the debate as a Victor Davis Hansonian situation where one is faced with "a bad choice and a worse choice." I agree with your own argument against the ban over your ultimate argument to support it.
I'm swayed by the argument from religious freedom. I see the act of voluntarily veiling oneself as falling within one's right to liberty and private property. Let me see if I can elucidate the issue.
Your argument is the following:
1. All acts that involve X are acts that should be banned 2. Veiling (as described in your essay) is an act that involves X 3. Therefore veiling is an act that should be banned
Now what's your X? While your essay isn't formal, the essential structure of your argument is captured above. Once X is understood, then one must determine if proposition #1 is true. Then one must determine if the argument made to prove proposition #1 is sound, und so weiter.
May '10
Re: Ban the Burqa
Claire writes,
"If Europe does not stand up now against veiling — and the conception of women and their place in society that it represents — within a generation there will be many cities in Europe where no unveiled woman will walk comfortably or safely."
I agree with this claim, but I deny that banning the act of veiling will assist measurably in protecting women. Women in Europe need police protection. European leaders must announce stubbornly and defiantly that they will not tolerate acts of aggression in civil society, especially if they are inspired by religious beliefs. The police must be sent en masse into Muslim communities as a sign that political leaders are entirely sincere when they say that violence against women, including Sharia-inspired violence, will be prohibited and severely punished - to the point that Muslim men should be second-guessing potential acts of aggression.
In addition to this, European governments should roll back the statist regulations that have been keeping Muslim Europeans in poverty. Wealth often domesticates religious beliefs while poverty often encourages an extreme expression of them.
Re: Ban the Burqa
X=All acts such that, were they widely to be practiced, would severely circumscribe the freedom of those who choose not to practice them, whose influence is deeply baleful and pernicious, and whose tendency socially is to spread widely and quickly.
There are not all that many examples I can think of, other than this.
Re: Ban the Burqa
Michael Labeit: Claire writes,
"If Europe does not stand up now against veiling — and the conception of women and their place in society that it represents — within a generation there will be many cities in Europe where no unveiled woman will walk comfortably or safely."
I agree with this claim, but I deny that banning the act of veiling will assist measurably in protecting women. Women in Europe need police protection. European leaders must announce stubbornly and defiantly that they will not tolerate acts of aggression in civil society, especially if they are inspired by religious beliefs. The police must be sent en masse into Muslim communities as a sign that political leaders are entirely sincere when they say that violence against women, including Sharia-inspired violence, will be prohibited and severely punished - to the point that Muslim men should be second-guessing potential acts of aggression.
In addition to this, European governments should roll back the statist regulations that have been keeping Muslim Europeans in poverty. Wealth often domesticates religious beliefs while poverty often encourages an extreme expression of them. · Aug 2 at 3:44am
I emphatically agree with all of your other suggestions.
May '10
Re: Ban the Burqa
I agree with your article. Paris was worth a mass and Western Civilization is worth some incoherence. What matters is that we keep our sights on the fundamental issues and acknowledge that real life is not a logic exercise, as you have done.
May '10
Re: Ban the Burqa
Claire, being largely ignorant of the world you live in I have no informed views to present here. But I would like to tell you how much I appreciate how you have explored this issue on Ricochet. The initial discussion was very enlightening and brought the topic to life in a way that no dry newspaper review could have done. It was fascinating to read the variety of responses to your question. The follow up with your conclusions is a wonderful summary of this very complicated matter. I agree with your reasoning in spite of the fact that it does go against the natural instinct to protect religious freedoms. I also agree strongly with Michael Labeit:
Jul '10
Re: Ban the Burqa
Your reasoning and conclusion are impressive and I'd only add that while there are women who voluntarily wear the burqa the majority has been forced into it and it is for this reason also it should be banned.
May I ask, Claire, what you think of Peter Hitchens's article on Turkey in this wknd Daily Mail? Walking ard Istanbul he paints a different picture of the place than you do. Thanks very much indeed.
May '10
Re: Ban the Burqa
The line between religious conviction and moral relativism is very slippery. I wonder if there would be debate about Claire's conclusions if the topic were female circumcision, which for those that practice it contains all the same convictions about female modesty and endorsements by female members of the societies in which it is practiced?
Re: Ban the Burqa
Ragnarok, in what way is he painting a different picture? He is perhaps only painting one side of the picture; he's not describing the vibrant secular culture that's also flourishing. They're both very much part of the city, which is what allows people so often to see only what they want to see. By the way, Fatih, the neighborhood he's talking about, is near Balat, the neighborhood I'm talking about. The IHH is in Fatih--you can see scenes of it in our Murky in Turkey videos. If you only visited the neighborhood I live in now, on the other side of the Golden Horn, you'd come away saying, "They're nuts." No burqa-tailors, lots of wine bars and hopping nightclubs. The way things look is very dependent on the neighborhood you're in, and most tourists (and visiting politicians) only see the most secular and Europeanized neighborhoods.
Jul '10
Re: Ban the Burqa
Very good article! But I'm still not convinced. The problem, as I see it, is not tolerance for veiling but tolerance for thuggery, and until that is addressed we're kidding ourselves that a burqa ban would accomplish anything. We can ban all the clothing we like, toss our sacred religious freedom to the wind, but if we don't make a principled and unapologetic stand against thuggery, if we don't discuss facts because they recall uncomfortable tropes, then we are doomed. Besides, goons don't stop being goons because you ban the trappings of goonery; goons stop being goons when you knock a tooth or two out of their heads.
Symbolism can be important, but when it comes to maintaining civilization, I'll take guns n' truncheons over symbols any day. In modern Europe, sadly, I see little stomach for the latter and none for the former.
Re: Ban the Burqa
Claire this is your best point, and why I ultimately come to the opposite conclusion from yours:
"It is, moreover, cruel to demand of a woman that she reveal parts of her body that her sense of modesty compels her to cover; to such a woman, the demand is as tyrannical, humiliating, and arbitrary as the passage of a law dictating that women bare their breasts."
I'm a small government conservative in all respects. The day some government orders my daughter to disrobe in an manner she thinks is inappropriate is the day I pick up my musket and start the second Revolution.
Re: Ban the Burqa
Justified Right: Claire this is your best point, and why I ultimately come to the opposite conclusion from yours:
"It is, moreover, cruel to demand of a woman that she reveal parts of her body that her sense of modesty compels her to cover; to such a woman, the demand is as tyrannical, humiliating, and arbitrary as the passage of a law dictating that women bare their breasts."
I'm a small government conservative in all respects. The day some government orders my daughter to disrobe in an manner she thinks is inappropriate is the day I pick up my musket and start the second Revolution. · Aug 2 at 7:27am
I know. This is really a hard one.
Jun '10
Re: Ban the Burqa
I'm skeptical about the burqa being a choice. Do these women really have the option to walk about in normal, modest street clothes?
I'm thinking of many incidents in my own life where I certainly had a "right" to buck the tide, but would face repurcussions if I did. Like speaking out about ending tenure and automatic pay raises at the Board of Ed meeting. (My kids would suffer.) Or speaking out when the creepy old chauvanistic VP always stared at my chest rather than look me in the eye. (Back then, the corporate culture supported his behavior and I'd look like a fool, or wreck my career, trying to address this.) The repercussions for women in these repressive, misogynistic cultures are 100X more serious. The burqa ban, in my opinion, is essential for enabling these cultures to move out of the stone age.
Re: Ban the Burqa
StickerShock,
In my hometown of Asbury Park NJ, there is a movement to make our beaches topless.
In fighting against the proposal, the other side has called me repressive and mysogynistic and said I am in the stone age.
Do you agree with them? If not, what should I say to them to convince them otherwise?
Jul '10
Re: Ban the Burqa
I just finished reading your article on NRO. I could not agree more heartily with all of your points. I teach in a school in which we have a large Somali population. Allowing the students special privileges which has been the wont of our principal has created some real problems. Like you, I am very averse to interfering with the religious or cultural practices of any people. However, Islam has established itself as system of beliefs which is totally exclusive. It excludes all practices which do not fall within its own orthodoxy. By that it forces all others to greet it with equal exclusion. One can only find compromise when both sides show mutual respect. Islam has no respect for Christianity, Judaism, or any other religion. We are all infidels. Any compromise on our side is taken as weakness and merely demonstrates our lack of conviction in their eyes. I deeply regret that it is necessary to deal with Muslims in this way, but they have brought it on themselves. Let do what they want in their own lands. These are "Christian" lands.
Re: Ban the Burqa
I can't help but think this is sort of a numbers game. Not too long ago, in Europe, you'd see no more than a couple of fully-veiled women a day, usually in high-end parts of town in London or Geneva. Back then, it didn't seem like a bid deal: a couple of black shrouds in a sea of regular clothes. Now, of course, it's starting to look the other way around.
Still, I'm uncomfortable with the ban. It doesn't seem right, somehow. And it's disingenuous, too. Europeans are too cowardly (and greedy) to stand up for themselves, to make a serious case for their culture and civilization, to break free from all of that goo-goo inclusive diversity nonsense the EU peppers its regulations with, and so now they're stuck with this back-door ban?
The burqa is the symptom, not the disease.
Jul '10
Re: Ban the Burqa
I have been reading Edmund Burke and found this passage which I think says a great deal about where we are:
"We are in a war of a peculiar nature. It is not with an ordinary community, which is hostile or friendly as passion or as interest may veer about; not with a State which makes war through wantonness, and abandons it through lassitude. We are at war with a system, which, by it's essence, is inimical to all other Governments, and which makes peace or war, as peace and war may best contribute to their subversion. It is with an armed doctrine that we are at war."
May '10
Re: Ban the Burqa
My husband just returned from a London business trip. One evening he strolled through an upscale shopping mall, with his eye out for a nice tie for himself or a teapot for me.
He did a double-take as he passed by an edible bra boutique.
His triple-take was that it was full of burqa-clad women.
I say bully for you, Claire!
The fabric of civilization cannot be pulled so tightly between extremes without ripping.
p.s. Dear husband brought home a teapot instead of a bra.