Bad news for Mitt Romney
Michael Tee ·
January 5, 2012 at 8:20pm
Saw this on Twitter. It's fairly...devastating.
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Comments:
Jul '10
Re: Bad news for Mitt Romney
But many people are.
One may take the opinion that Romney in Bain Capital didn't have the disposition, not the ability, to turn around some businesses and rather "sell them off" and make a profit themselves.
Edited on January 5, 2012 at 6:00pmJan '11
Re: Bad news for Mitt Romney
Like I said, if as a country we don't have the stomach for the truth about how capitalism works and we can't support letting companies that can't compete being allowed to fail, we are already lost.
Jan '11
Re: Bad news for Mitt Romney
katievs
Todd
katievs
Lower tax rates is not subsidizing.
In a perfect free world market, it wouldn't be called for. But under the circumstances--economic, political, and international--I think it's prudent and wise.
I think the US has good sound reasons, including national security reasons, for wanting to incentivize the growth in domestic industry.
I agree that lower taxes applied "across the board" are not subsidies, but offering a lower rate for one industry while leaving the higher rate for everyone else is a subsidy.
Unless we're going to be economic absolutists, then the question (IMO) should be whether it's sound and sensible policy.
What's wrong with being an economic absolutest? The alternative is to agree with some form of central planning? I know that will sound sort of like something you'd hear from an anarchist but in the matter taxation, just like law (legislation), it ought to be applied uniformly and justly to everyone.
Jan '11
Re: Bad news for Mitt Romney
Michael Tee
But many people are.
I was about to write, simply, "That's their problem!" Unfortunately, the more I think about it, it's actually more my problem than theirs. I may believe these people to be ignorant to economics and commerce but I have to be affected by what I consider to be the stupid political choices they they'll make because of this ignorance.
Dec '11
Re: Bad news for Mitt Romney
LowcountryJoe
katievs
Todd
katievs
Lower tax rates is not subsidizing.
In a perfect free world market, it wouldn't be called for. But under the circumstances--economic, political, and international--I think it's prudent and wise.
I think the US has good sound reasons, including national security reasons, for wanting to incentivize the growth in domestic industry.
I agree that lower taxes applied "across the board" are not subsidies, but offering a lower rate for one industry while leaving the higher rate for everyone else is a subsidy.
Unless we're going to be economic absolutists, then the question (IMO) should be whether it's sound and sensible policy.
What's wrong with being an economic absolutest? The alternative is to agree with some form of central planning? I know that will sound sort of like something you'd hear from an anarchist but in the matter taxation, just like law (legislation), it ought to be applied uniformly and justly to everyone. · Jan 5 at 9:03am
Nobody exalts the carrion beatle. Everybody knows carrion beatles have a job to do in the circle of life, but they arent going to win the circle of life election.
Aug '10
Re: Bad news for Mitt Romney
Guruforhire
Misthiocracy: How, exactly, did Bain Capital "make millions" off the purchase and closure of a single factory? · Jan 5 at 8:21am
Edited on Jan 05 at 08:22 am
Tooling can add up real quick. · Jan 5 at 8:25am
Do you mean that the money they made from selling the tools was millions of dollars greater than the purchase price of the factory?
I understand how Bain could save millions by closing a single factory, and I see how selling the tools can help recoup some of the cost of purchasing the factory.
I'm not saying it's not how it works. I'm just saying that I don't understand how it works.
Edited on January 5, 2012 at 7:05pmMar '11
Re: Bad news for Mitt Romney
No, he shouldn't get the nomination because he's an unconservative technocrat. Bain Capital shouldn't have squat to do with it.
BTW, I loathe Romney, and hope he loses (desperately), but this ad causes me not one whit of worry. If he has any brains at all, he'd make a response ad saying "That's right, we shut that factory down, and we put the money to better use in new investments that created new jobs and made better returns for the people that trusted us to invest their hard earned money. We did our job, and we did it well. Capitalism works. If you wan't a protectionist economy where factories never close, Cuba and North Korea have visas available".
Dec '11
Re: Bad news for Mitt Romney
Misthiocracy
Guruforhire
Misthiocracy: How, exactly, did Bain Capital "make millions" off the purchase and closure of a single factory? · Jan 5 at 8:21am
Edited on Jan 05 at 08:22 am
Tooling can add up real quick. · Jan 5 at 8:25am
Do you mean that the money they made from selling the tools was millions of dollars greater than the purchase price of the factory?
I understand how Bain could save millions by closing a single factory, and I see how selling the tools can help recoup some of the cost of purchasing the factory. · Jan 5 at 9:49am
Edited on Jan 05 at 09:51 am
Depends on what they did. I can see clearing a million selling off the tooling from a factory and then opening up operations overseas.
Aug '11
Re: Bad news for Mitt Romney
Douglas
BTW, I loathe Romney, and hope he loses (desperately), but this ad causes me not one whit of worry. If he has any brains at all, he'd make a response ad saying "That's right, we shut that factory down, and we put the money to better use in new investments that created new jobs and made better returns for the people that trusted us to invest their hard earned money. We did our job, and we did it well. Capitalism works. If you wan't a protectionist economy where factories never close, Cuba and North Korea have visas available".
Well, yeah . . . and that's my point. Running him as the GOP nominee invites exactly the sort of ad that MoveOn made above, and Mitt Romney seems ill-prepared, unable, or unwilling to make a compelling argument against it.
Dec '11
Re: Bad news for Mitt Romney
DrewInWisconsin
Douglas
BTW, I loathe Romney, and hope he loses (desperately), but this ad causes me not one whit of worry. If he has any brains at all, he'd make a response ad saying "That's right, we shut that factory down, and we put the money to better use in new investments that created new jobs and made better returns for the people that trusted us to invest their hard earned money. We did our job, and we did it well. Capitalism works. If you wan't a protectionist economy where factories never close, Cuba and North Korea have visas available".
Well, yeah . . . and that's my point. Running him as the GOP nominee invites exactly the sort of ad that MoveOn made above, and Mitt Romney seems ill-prepared, unable, or unwilling to make a compelling argument against it. · Jan 5 at 10:30am
There just isnt one that is emotionally satisfying. Think about the guy who was driving the tractor knocking down people's houses in the grapes of wrath. Thats Mitt Romney. Everybody gets it, nobody likes it.
Oct '10
Re: Bad news for Mitt Romney
Quite possibly. I assume the factory was owned by a company, quite possibly a loss-making company that hadn't paid dividends in years and was unlikely to in the future. Then it was not uncommon (in those days) for the aggregate value of all the stock in the company to be less than the (net) value of the assets sold off individually.
A stupid example. Bob has a newspaper delivery business that, because of his cost structure - he pays himself too much because he unionised himself, his corporate overheads are too high because he treats himself to steak dinners every Friday, he takes a really inefficient route - makes only a dollar a year in profit. Let's say newspaper delivery businesses are valued at 10 times earnings, so you can buy his business for $10. But one of the assets of the business is a bicycle worth $150. So Alice buys Bob's business, sacks him, pays him and other creditors off for $40 and sells the bicycle. Quick profit of $100.
Note that the example works even if Bob is the best newspaper deliveryman in the world, and it's just the underlying slow death of the newspaper industry that limits him to profits of a dollar a year. The brute fact is that it is better to shut the business down and liberate the bicycle (and Bob) to be used elsewhere.
Edited on January 5, 2012 at 7:57pmAug '10
Re: Bad news for Mitt Romney
Here's one data point that Romney can use in his rebuttal:
Source: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/after-receiving-bailout-gm-may-move-volt-production-to-china/
Oct '10
Re: Bad news for Mitt Romney
katievs We use tariffs, tax incentives, etc. to encourage behavior that's in the best interests of the country ...
That's very different from bailouts and crony-capitalism designed to enrich particular people or companies at the expense of the competition.
It's exactly the same on two levels:
1. It shifts the focus of big business from satisfying customers to convincing Washington that they are too strategic to fail. We know with empirical certainty that politicians and bureaucrats are unable to resist falling for this. All industrial policy becomes a conspiracy against consumers and taxpayers. See also Wesley Mouch.
2. It reduces the size of the pie for everyone. If the market (that is, the co-ordinated decisions of free people) would have put a dollar of investment there, and now government says it has to go here, then efficiency has been impaired. The economy will be smaller tomorrow. That means the TVs, the houses and hospitals will be smaller, too. Except for the chosen ones. That's the road to North Korea, not liberty.
May '10
Re: Bad news for Mitt Romney
LowcountryJoe
What's wrong with being an economic absolutest? The alternative is to agree with some form of central planning? I know that will sound sort of like something you'd hear from an anarchist but in the matter taxation, just like law (legislation), it ought to be applied uniformly and justly to everyone. · Jan 5 at 9:03am
What's wrong is that personal life--on the level of individuals and on the level of nations--comprises more than economics. Efficiency is a real value, but it's not the only value. National independence is a value. National security is a value. And so on, and so forth.
The alternative to absolutism is principled judgment.
If we as a self-governing people determine that it's in our interests not to outsource all American industry and agriculture to foreign countries, then we do well to support and incentivize those sectors of the economy.
Jun '10
Re: Bad news for Mitt Romney
Remember, most political advertising doesn't appeal to logic, or financial analysis. It appeals to something more powerful--emotions. You can't just say, "it's not fair." If it works, you'll see it over and over again, fair or not.
Re: Bad news for Mitt Romney
Someone needs to ask that fellow in the video how many concessions his union agreed to make while the prior owners were losing all the money they had worked for. More of a full story.
Doesn't Ricochet have any investigative reporters?
Edited on January 5, 2012 at 8:43pmMay '10
Re: Bad news for Mitt Romney
genferei
katievs We use tariffs, tax incentives, etc. to encourage behavior that's in the best interests of the country ...
That's very different from bailouts and crony-capitalism designed to enrich particular people or companies at the expense of the competition.
It's exactly the same on two levels:
1. It shifts the focus of big business from satisfying customers to convincing Washington that they are too strategic to fail.
If, as a matter of practical fact, an entire sector of the economy IS too strategically valuable to let go be outsourced to competition overseas, where (for instance) there is no comparable value placed on human life and safety and where there is hostility to our interests, then I want my representatives to protect it through the means legitimately at their disposal, including tax incentives and tariffs.
As to efficiency being impaired, I repeat what I said above. Efficiency is not the only value at stake.
Edited on January 5, 2012 at 9:19pmJun '10
Re: Bad news for Mitt Romney
Guruforhire
Depends on what they did. I can see clearing a million selling off the tooling from a factory and then opening up operations overseas. · Jan 5 at 9:57am
But don't you then need to buy the same tools for the overseas factory? I get that labor is cheaper in China, but are new tools over there so much cheaper than used tools over here?
Re: Bad news for Mitt Romney
Gordon Gecco for Prez!
Now MoveOn.org thinks they are Bud Fox.
More like Charlie Sheen.
Dec '11
Re: Bad news for Mitt Romney
Joseph Stanko
Guruforhire
Depends on what they did. I can see clearing a million selling off the tooling from a factory and then opening up operations overseas. · Jan 5 at 9:57am
But don't you then need to buy the same tools for the overseas factory? I get that labor is cheaper in China, but are new tools over there so much cheaper than used tools over here? · Jan 5 at 11:44am
Yes. a 60 year old southbend goes for the same price as a new chinese made lathe.
My dad is trying to sell a southbend he has, and he listed it for 1600 and nobody is willing to pay more than 1000 that they can pay for a chinese one at harbor frieght. So he is parting out the tooling (chucks, collets, cutters etc) for around $1000 and will dump the carcas on craigs list for the under 1000 that people are looking for. $400 more for him.
Edited on January 5, 2012 at 8:55pm