Atheist, Pro-Choice, And Still A Conservative?
Diane Ellis' post got me wondering:
Just because you don't believe in God or an afterlife doesn't mean you don't believe in morality, ethics, the objective superiority of some ethical/moral systems over others, capitalism, federalism, personal responsibility, or the importance of family.
Just because you are pro-choice doesn't mean that you believe it's right to murder innocent people for the sake of convenience. It can just mean that you do not believe that sentience begins at conception, or that you feel that the well being of a spouse supersedes the needs of the child.
I don't see how atheism or being pro-choice, in and of themselves, any more disbars one from being a conservative than being homosexual or a polygamist. Am I missing something here?
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May '10
Re: Atheist, Pro-Choice, And Still A Conservative?
It depends. Are you running for something or just voting?
On the national level (Prez of VP) those are non-starters for a politician. On a local level, could a pro-choice atheist win in, say, NY or Mass? Sure.
Dec '10
Re: Atheist, Pro-Choice, And Still A Conservative?
Just voting or heck even just having a discussion here. I am just trying to determine if people have a problem with Atheist, gay, polygamist, pro-choicers calling themselves "conservative".
Jun '10
Re: Atheist, Pro-Choice, And Still A Conservative?
I'm a Christian, pro-life conservative. Here's my take.
Athiest. Sure you can be a conservative. Heather Mac Donald and John Derbyshire certainly are. A few years ago MacDonald said, “[s]keptical conservatives do not look into the abyss when they make ethical choices. Their moral sense is as secure as a believer's. . . . They do not need God or the Christian Bible to discover the golden rule and see themselves in others.” Thus, “[n]on-believers are good conservatives, too. . . . [I]t should be possible for conservatives to unite on policy without agreeing on theology.” It's a question of the source of your principles. Mine come largely from religious principle, but that's certainly not the only source.
Pro-choice. You can certainly be a fiscal conservative, a tax conservative, a conservative on education issues, public union issues, and a host of other issues. You can certainly believe that abortion should be legal (though I'm not sure how a conservative can reconcile the anti-constitutional, poorly-reasoned Roe decision--which is a travesty of judicial activism and incompetence). And there is a non-religious pro-life case.
Bottom line: sure you can be a conservative.
Sep '10
Re: Atheist, Pro-Choice, And Still A Conservative?
I was at a Marquette University basketball game this past winter and saw a car in the parking lot with a bumper sticker that read "Pro Choice Catholic".
If you like the label conservative I guess have at it.
Jun '10
Re: Atheist, Pro-Choice, And Still A Conservative?
One more thought. I recently saw some polling numbers (which I can't find now) that indicate that a fairly large majority of self-proclaimed Tea Partiers are anti-abortion. But certainly not all. The fact is that Roe is the law until the Supreme Court changes it--which may be never. That saddens me, but it's the fact.
In the meantime, we face an existential financial crisis in America. We can disagree on a right to abortion and make common cause on big government issues--and we should.
Jul '10
Re: Atheist, Pro-Choice, And Still A Conservative?
Of course you can. I was at one time an atheist and simultaneously a rabid, Constitution-waving conservative.
I'll go even further: one can be a conservative and also support the rights of gay people to full equality under the law.
May '10
Re: Atheist, Pro-Choice, And Still A Conservative?
Nyadnar17:
Just because you don't believe in God or an afterlife doesn't mean you don't believe in morality, ethics, the objective superiority of some ethical/moral systems over other, capitalism, federalism, personal responsibility, or the importance of family.
Only fiscally conservative. Theism and pro-lifeism, not to mention oppositon to gay marriage, are social conservative prerequisites.
Dec '10
Re: Atheist, Pro-Choice, And Still A Conservative?
Nyadnar17: ...
Just because you are pro-choice doesn't mean that you believe its right to murder innocent people for the sake of convenience. It can just mean that you do not believe that sentience begins at conception or the you feel that the health/well being of a spouse supersedes the needs of the child.
Am I missing something here? ·
You think that pro-lifers believe that sentience begins at conception? And, apparently, you suppose that notion is the basis for objections to abortion?
At conception, a human is monocellular. To my knowledge, no such creature plays chess, hums along to Beethoven's Ninth, or posts to Ricochet. I know this, and I still think it's a really bad idea to kill them. Even right then.
Dec '10
Re: Atheist, Pro-Choice, And Still A Conservative?
Just as I'd support any Republican candidate over Barack Obama, I'll gladly welcome any Republican voter, whatever he or she believes about abortion, gay marriage, etc. We're not going to save this country from European-style decline without you.
But, to your proposition, I believe what you are describing is best labeled libertarian rather than conservative. I don't believe anyone addresses the difference between the two better than Matt Lewis: The Case for Conservatism (vs. Libertarianism).
Teaser:
"The conservative argues that the greatest instructor on what laws should exist in a civil society is human experience. So, it would seem libertarianism hits its own walls when it ventures out of its world of make-believe theories and steps into the world of reality.
Alternatively, traditional conservatives believe the rise and success of Western society was not merely a lucky accident or the result of a couple Enlightenment period thunderbolts, but rather the product of diligent work, trial and error, and human experience -- and in may ways the result of Christian civilization."
Lewis' piece is worthy of a round or two at Ricochet. Has it been discussed?
May '10
Re: Atheist, Pro-Choice, And Still A Conservative?
The question you're really asking--it seems to me--is not whether it's possible to be an atheist or "social liberal" and a conservative, but rather whether atheism and social liberalism are finally consistent with conservatism.
I think they're not. If there is no Creator who endows rights, how is it that rights are unalienable? If values are not objective, how resist the claim that "might is right."
Edited on Apr 19, 2011 at 9:00pmMay '10
Re: Atheist, Pro-Choice, And Still A Conservative?
Our son hummed to Beethoven -- we know because we heard him in the Petri dish -- along with this little, tiny voice going, "Knight to Queen's Bishop 4." But then, he's really advanced.
The lack of fingers was an admitted disadvantage in posting to Ricochet.
Sep '10
Re: Atheist, Pro-Choice, And Still A Conservative?
Atheists can be conservative. However the atheist must respect religion and it's place in the world in order to be a true conservative.
Also, religious people can be fervent collectivists and leftists. I believe conservatism is too often associated with religion and religious people.
Lots of religious people are "conservative" because of their religion, so I'm not sure that many of them are as conservative as many believe.
For example, Mike Huckabee labels himself, and is labeled by nearly everyone, as "conservative". He's not.
Feb '11
Re: Atheist, Pro-Choice, And Still A Conservative?
Kenneth: Of course you can. I was at one time an atheist and simultaneously a rabid, Constitution-waving conservative.
I'll go even further: one can be a conservative and also support the rights of gay people to full equality under the law. · Apr 19 at 7:46pm
Kenneth -- I'll bite, and assume you mean the right of gay people to marry other gay people? Under the law, they can currently do so -- as long as the other gay people are of the opposite sex! Gay people, as far as I know, can set up legal ability for their same-sex partners to have power of attorney, to inherit property, to buy property together, etc., just like anyone else in this country. The institution of marriage is open to all who are not currently legally married, who register with the state (the license) and have their marriage witnessed properly by an agent of the state.
Dec '10
Re: Atheist, Pro-Choice, And Still A Conservative?
Franco: Lots of religious people are "conservative" because of their religion, so I'm not sure that many of them are as conservative as many believe.
For example, Mike Huckabee labels himself, and is labeled by nearly everyone, as "conservative". He's not. · Apr 20 at 3:45am
I'm not a Huckabee follower. What makes him "not conservative"?
Oct '10
Re: Atheist, Pro-Choice, And Still A Conservative?
Western Chauvinist
Franco: Lots of religious people are "conservative" because of their religion, so I'm not sure that many of them are as conservative as many believe.
For example, Mike Huckabee labels himself, and is labeled by nearly everyone, as "conservative". He's not. · Apr 20 at 3:45am
I'm not a Huckabee follower. What makes him "not conservative"? · Apr 20 at 4:51am
Huckabee's position on taxing versus cutting spending--he's far too enthusiastic concerning the former--bars him from being a conservative in my eyes. As I just read on Mickey Kaus's Daily Caller blog this morning, when you embrace taxing as the answer...oh, lemme just go get the quote. Speaking of cutting spending vs raising taxes: "Once the GOPs agree to the latter the effective pressure to do the former disproportionately evaporates."
Huckabee's openess to taxing ourselves out of debt, even if he stresses that it's secondary to cutting, will result in the same-old-same-old.
See Troy Senik's post on Trump and Huckabee on the main feed.
Edited on Apr 20, 2011 at 6:09amDec '10
Re: Atheist, Pro-Choice, And Still A Conservative?
katievs: The question you're really asking--it seems to me--is not whether it's possible to be an atheist or "social liberal" and a conservative, but rather whether atheism and social liberalism are finally consistent with conservatism.
I think they're not. If there is no Creator who endows rights, how is it that rights are unalienable? If values are not objective, how resist the claim that "might is right." · Apr 19 at 8:59pm
Edited on Apr 19 at 09:00 pm
Agreed. At the core of conservatism is the Judeo-Christian belief in the infinite preciousness of every individual as one made in God's image and likeness.
While you may be an atheist and pro-choice and a good and ethical person who votes conservative Republican, it is likely that you are missing the full understanding of conservatism.
Sep '10
Re: Atheist, Pro-Choice, And Still A Conservative?
Western Chauvinist
Franco: Lots of religious people are "conservative" because of their religion, so I'm not sure that many of them are as conservative as many believe.
For example, Mike Huckabee labels himself, and is labeled by nearly everyone, as "conservative". He's not. · Apr 20 at 3:45am
I'm not a Huckabee follower. What makes him "not conservative"? · Apr 20 at 4:51am
Severely Ltd, answered quite well some specifics. Huckabee isn't a constitutional conservative. I have heard him referred to as a "pro-life Democrat" and that sums it up nicely for me. Huckabee believes the government can and should "help". Someone who wants this country kept close to the founding principles does not accept this assumption.
I have a difficult time reconciling Huckabee's official acts as a politician as well as many of his pronouncements with any one principle, let alone conservatism, and therefore I'm not sure exactly what he is.
Jun '10
Re: Atheist, Pro-Choice, And Still A Conservative?
Western Chauvinist
katievs:
Agreed. At the core of conservatism is the Judeo-Christian belief in the infinite preciousness of every individual as one made in God's image and likeness.
You may be ascribing a lot more specific religious meaning of what Jefferson or the other Founders intended by the use of the word Creator in the Declaration. They never use the words "Judeo-Christian", "Jesus Christ", "Moses", "...in God's image..." in the Declaration or the Constitution. Why is that? Why did they stop short from making further descriptions? They certainly had the opportunity. And why "Creator" rather than "God"? Was it the aim of the founders to put a stake in the ground and communicate that the individual's right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness were not gifts from kings, queens, tyrants or other men that they were derived from a greater source beyond the realm of men? Could it be that Jefferson, et. al. chose not to be overly descriptive about what the Creator was because it would lead to a hornet's nest of innumerable theological and philosophical arguments that would only distract from the essential point at hand?
Jun '10
Re: Atheist, Pro-Choice, And Still A Conservative?
Western Chauvinist
katievs:
Agreed. At the core of conservatism is the Judeo-Christian belief in the infinite preciousness of every individual as one made in God's image and likeness.
Is it reasonable to believe in the preciousness of individual human beings because human beings have the ability and capacity to reason? Did Jefferson, Washington and Thomas Paine all have the exact same notion of who or what the Creator was? By today's standards would these men be considered conservatives?
Sep '10
Re: Atheist, Pro-Choice, And Still A Conservative?
Western Chauvinist
katievs:
At the core of conservatism is the Judeo-Christian belief in the infinite preciousness of every individual as one made in God's image and likeness.
While you may be an atheist and pro-choice and a good and ethical person who votes conservative Republican, it is likely that you are missing the full understanding of conservatism. · Apr 20 at 6:08am
One can believe in the preciousness of the individual and believe that it is better to have laws that are biased in favor of life - to affirm that life is good and have a full understanding of conservatism without believing in God or being Judeo-Christian.
Actually I have been recently considering that many (not all) religious conservatives are conservative by default - it dovetails with their religious beliefs, They have not really grasped the philosophical abstractions. They were raised conservative, they see the failures and the devastation of liberalism, and they made their choice on that basis.
Sarah Palin comes to mind. The fact that so many religious conservatives can't see through Mike Huckabee makes me wonder about how much they really understand. Social conservatives can be collectivists. Collectivism negates conservatism.