Are We There Yet?
My kids love to drive me batty with the question whenever we go anywhere. The question has started plaguing me for another reason lately. I had opportunity to quote Ben Franklin in a topic recently, and the material I cited has the question "are we there yet?" nagging at me. Franklin struck me as being realistically pessimistic in his assessment of the constitution proposed in 1787. He said,
I agree to this Constitution with all its faults, if they are such; because I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of Government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other.
So the question is this: have we reached the point Franklin predicted where the people are so corrupt they need a despotic government and are capable of living under no other form? Are we there yet?
In my studies I've always leaned more toward Aristotle than Plato, liked Aquinas over Augustine, and agreed with Locke more than with Hobbes. I understand the fallen nature of man, but also believe in the power of redemption. The Franklin quote is making me question some fundamental assumptions about the nature of man. Our entire system of government is based on the idea that Locke was right. Man does not naturally default to a state of war. However, I can drive less than an hour and be on I-5 where a more Hobbesian perspective fits the facts. Heck, I've seen it on display getting out of the church parking lot. EJHill recently asked if there was any reason to be optimistic. Several left comments suggesting that there is no reason for hope. If that is the case, I hope to evaluate some of the cause of such a view in this topic.
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Oct '10
Re: Are We There Yet?
Nearly there, methinks....
May '10
Re: Are We There Yet?
If you could take a poll of the general population you'd have to ask them the following question: What do you fear more, that the role of the federal government will be reduced or increased? If a majority responds that they fear a reduction then we have crossed the Rubicon.
Edited on Jul 17, 2011 at 2:46pmDec '10
Re: Are We There Yet?
Do these people not know what that answer says about them?
May '10
Re: Are We There Yet?
King, I don't think they care. You and I think a limited government is needed but only to stand between us and anarchy. How many generations have been taught that the government must be so big to stand between them and abject poverty?
You and I say, "Life is unfair." Generations have been taught, no, life is great. It's white, rich men that are unfair and that government can cure that unfairness. The economy, to them, is finite. The only way for a rich man to drive a BMW is for you to drive a 10-year-old clunker. He only gets to eat steak because you eat hamburger.
They are totally comfortable with fomenting class envy and racial hatred. Because politics is war, but in this war you can never claim victory. Never acknowledge the gains won because that's weakness. We have always been at war with Eastasia. And we always will be.
Jan '11
Re: Are We There Yet?
Voters wanted it this way and did not want to be told of the necessary hard choices. Yes I know that is past-tense. Politicians had an opportunity to do something about this in April of this year...but took the safety and punted. Thanks to Mitch McConnell, you just know that we're going to take the safety and punt again. There will come a point where the game clock will be out of time. Will the season be over by then?
Dec '10
Re: Are We There Yet?
It's the fact that voters think like this that worries me so much. I'm starting to think that Franklin was right and we are there.
May '10
Re: Are We There Yet?
That's why I don't pooh-pooh anyone on Ricochet that brings up secession talk or maybe an amicable red-blue parting of the ways. This breach between us is growing by the day.
The left has become unhinged. Every disagreement has to be more than just a difference of opinion. How can Americans go forward together when more than a third of us are constantly derided as idiots, evil, or phobic? Your conservatism, your Christianity is not a philosophy to them, it's a sickness.
Edited on Jul 17, 2011 at 3:34pmJan '11
Re: Are We There Yet?
I'm hoping that the Ricochet powers-that-be add the Google's '+1' button soon. I'd like to add this contribution to my Google+ feed.
Jan '11
Re: Are We There Yet?
That why the "tipping point" is so scary.
Jan '11
Re: Are We There Yet?
This is a pretty funny video outlining the problem. HT to Greg Mankiw's blog.
May '10
Re: Are We There Yet?
What is it about a despotic government that makes it a sound remedy for a corrupted people? If the people are morally depraved, then the government won't escape this affliction, since the government is staffed by people too. How will a despotic government deal with moral issues?
Secondly, from what facts would someone argue that people today are uniquely immoral? Now is unarguably the greatest time to be alive, especially to be an American. If you were born in the U.S., then you've won the lottery of life.
Dec '10
Re: Are We There Yet?
Michael Labeit What is it about a despotic government that makes it a sound remedy for a corrupted people? If the people are morally depraved, then the government won't escape this affliction, since the government is staffed by people too. How will a despotic government deal with moral issues?
Secondly, from what facts would someone argue that people today are uniquely immoral? Now is unarguably the greatest time to be alive, especially to be an American. If you were born in the U.S., then you've won the lottery of life. · Jul 17 at 3:52pm
To the first question: it boggles the mind as to why people would choose despotic government, but people keep voting statist anyway. Apparently they've bought the line that our betters should do all the hard thinking for us.
To the second bit, I'd argue that lack of self control/self discipline makes this generation uniquely immoral. It's great to be an American today primarily because of what those who came before did, not because of what those here today are doing.
May '10
Re: Are We There Yet?
The King Prawn
Michael Labeit
To the first question: it boggles the mind as to why people would choose despotic government, but people keep voting statist anyway. Apparently they've bought the line that our betters should do all the hard thinking for us.
A despotic government would be reliably despotic; such a despotism would be a sure, long-term despotism. The despotism of voters is much less assured. Some years, voters choose the wrong candidates, some years they choose the right candidates. I wouldn't substitute an uncertain despotism for a certain one.
The King Prawn
Michael Labeit
To the second bit, I'd argue that lack of self control/self discipline makes this generation uniquely immoral. It's great to be an American today primarily because of what those who came before did, not because of what those here today are doing.
I think this does not do justice to the entrepreneurial and innovative capacity of the marketplace today. One needs only to peruse the pages of any publication devoted to electronics, engineering, science, etc., to see that we are dwarfing previous generations in terms of R&D and product quality/quantity. I envy future generations.
Dec '10
Re: Are We There Yet?
Michael Labeit
One needs only to peruse the pages of any publication devoted to electronics, engineering, science, etc., to see that we are dwarfing previous generations in terms of R&D and product quality/quantity. I envy future generations. · Jul 17 at 4:25pm
But what chance does any of the innovation or entrepreneurship stand in the face of the type of nanny state government we have and that is growing daily?
May '10
Re: Are We There Yet?
The King Prawn
Michael Labeit
To the second bit, I'd argue that lack of self control/self discipline makes this generation uniquely immoral.
Lack of self-control/self-discipline expresses itself in different ways. Today, melancholy estimates of our culture are reinforced by the fact that the stupidity of people, particularly of our youth, is capable of being broadcasted to millions of people. Information on the ignorance of people is easily available, hence more are inclined to conclude that we are navigating [expletive]'s creek. I'm not too nostalgic about generations past, who would have expressed their contempt for good behavior by lynching their fellow citizens or prompting wars of aggression.
Dec '10
Re: Are We There Yet?
Michael, you make very good points. I'm slightly less gloomy for having read them. Perhaps Locke really was right after all. But, is our culture enough to overthrow leviathan and regain our liberty so that our culture can shine?
May '10
Re: Are We There Yet?
The King Prawn
Michael Labeit
One needs only to peruse the pages of any publication devoted to electronics, engineering, science, etc., to see that we are dwarfing previous generations in terms of R&D and product quality/quantity. I envy future generations.
But what chance does any of the innovation or entrepreneurship stand in the face of the type of nanny state government we have and that is growing daily?
The innovation occurs now as we speak. I think that few people who predict a precipitous fall in the standard of living within their lifetime during a conversation would actually bet money on that proposition. The HDI is a flawed index, but its nevertheless not a bad sign if your score increases year after year. According to an analysis of HDI trends, the standard of living throughout the world, including the U.S., has been increasing since 1980.
I think that cynicism about our future also underestimates technology. Historically, government regulation has invariably been proceeded by adaptive technological innovation. This podcast with Russ Roberts and Robin Hanson of GMU gives me but one reason to be optimistic.
May '10
Re: Are We There Yet?
I also think that many with a bearish forecast of the future, especially conservatives, hold such a prediction because of the fall of Christianity. I suspect that this is actually the chief reason behind their pessimism. I get the feeling that they are alarmed by the secularization of the West, particularly Europe, and that no innovation or breakthrough, however significant, can assuage the fear they have of a world without their greatest value, their religion.
Dec '10
Re: Are We There Yet?
So, essentially you're saying that Franklin was wrong. The people will not become corrupted and become governable only by despotism.
Jun '11
Re: Are We There Yet?
I got to this conversation late but I will add my $0.02 and say that I don't know when we became unfit for self government but I know exactly when I realized we were, in fact, already unfit: When Al Gore got a big bump in the poles because of the way he kissed his wife at the convention. The fact that a significant portion of the population thought that the way a man kissed his wife had some bearing on his ability to lead the country says to me that the republic is doomed. As for why this will lead to tyranny I will let Mr. Burke answer that.
Society cannot exist, unless a controlling power upon will and appetite be placed somewhere; and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without. It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things, that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters.” Edmond Burke