Are We Having A Real Conversation Here?
The New York Times has a piece about the dangers of electronic communication.
FACE-TO-FACE conversation unfolds slowly. It teaches patience. When we communicate on our digital devices, we learn different habits. As we ramp up the volume and velocity of online connections, we start to expect faster answers. To get these, we ask one another simpler questions; we dumb down our communications, even on the most important matters. It is as though we have all put ourselves on cable news. Shakespeare might have said, “We are consum’d with that which we were nourish’d by.”
Sherry Turkle, the researcher who wrote the piece, relays a haunting experience when she brought a robot (designed in the shape of a baby seal) to an elder-care facility and an older woman began talking to it about the loss of her child. The researcher said that everyone else found this story amazing, not disheartening, a sign that "we have confused conversation with connection and collectively seem to have embraced a new kind of delusion that accepts the simulation of compassion as sufficient unto the day. And why would we want to talk about love and loss with a machine that has no experience of the arc of human life? Have we so lost confidence that we will be there for one another?"
Turkle advises families to create space for conversations -- the kitchen, the dining room. She urges people to make their cars "device-free zones." In so doing, we demonstrate the value of conversation to our children. She suggests doing the same at work.
Most of all, we need to remember — in between texts and e-mails and Facebook posts — to listen to one another, even to the boring bits, because it is often in unedited moments, moments in which we hesitate and stutter and go silent, that we reveal ourselves to one another.
I have a slightly different take on all of this. I understand the fear of what problems can be caused by digital communications. My husband and I don't even keep a television, much less phones or computers, in our bedroom. We eat dinner together as a family. We don't let our children use our iPad apart from special treats on plane trips. I wish we used our phones less in the cars.
But I'm someone who works from home while also raising small children. Without my email, phone, internet communications, etc., I would be having far less meaningful communication with adults than I do now.
The key is the quality of these conversations and ensuring there is time for real interaction, too. Whether it's a Ricochet meet-up or just a meet-up between other friends, or the occasional offline chat to hammer out a problem or phone call to catch up, technology can be just as helpful as harmful. It's all in how you use it, right?
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Comments:
Sep '11
Re: Are We Having A Real Conversation Here?
Mollie--
The "researcher" can safely be dismissed as a newbie to online communications.
In the real world:
You: "Some weather, huh?"
Friend: "Yeah. They're calling for rain on Thursday."
You: "Really? I'll never get my planting done...."
Meanwhile, online:
You: "...the problem, ultimately, is the limitations of leftist epistomology."
Peter: "Interesting point--but we're drifting from our topic of the papacy, social justice, and the European experiment...."
Claire: "...which, of course, includes the question of how Turkey fits into the modern notion of Greater Europa...."
Dave: "...and truck drivers...."
James: "...those trucks, of course, hauling watermelons."
Lance: "...and speaking of Turkey, European social justice, and the re-emergent papacy, here's a rare live video of Thrashing Bishops just before the airplane crash...."
Rob: "Trucks, Turkey, Europe, airplane crash...thrashing bishops. Hmm. [cogitate][cogitate] "Marie! Call Matt Damon's agent and see if we can do a lunch together...."
Yeah--I see how personal interaction is so much deeper.
Jan '11
Re: Are We Having A Real Conversation Here?
Let me throw you a curve.
Baltimore had a Ricochet meetup last fall, which I really enjoyed. But I wasn't ... prepared ... for it. I went there expecting a purely social occasion. I wasn't prepared for any debate or in-depth political conversation. We were meeting at a bar, in an interesting part of town, and all I was expecting was to have a couple drinks, a couple laughs, and waste time with some nice people.
Now as it turned out, that happened. But something else happened. There were some interesting conversations about society and politics, and until that meetup, I would never think of having a political conversation among people whom I'd never "met" before.
The fact that we had never met personally, but we had all "met" online, added an unusual dimension to ... what would have been ... a purely social occasion.
When I was driving home that night, I thought that was a good thing. These academic studies suggest that "online" is trying to replace human community. Well, for some, maybe. But my experience, especially after that meetup, is that "online" can be a nice way to get a headstart.
Dec '10
Re: Are We Having A Real Conversation Here?
"...a robot (designed in the shape of a baby seal) to an elder-care facility and an older woman began talking to it about the loss of her child."
Is this so different from talking to a pet, which people do all the time? Dogs are best for this because they look at you and appear to be listening.
Re: Are We Having A Real Conversation Here?
I just happened to come across this article, headlined "Does Facebook Cause Loneliness? Short answer, No. Why Are We Discussing this? Long Answer Below."
Jan '11
Re: Are We Having A Real Conversation Here?
My dog does listen and understands.
Foxman:"...a robot (designed in the shape of a baby seal) to an elder-care facility and an older woman began talking to it about the loss of her child."
Is this so different from talking to a pet, which people do all the time? Dogs are best for this because they look at you and appear to be listening. · 3 minutes ago
I will believe nothing to the contrary until my dog tells me different.
Jun '10
Re: Are We Having A Real Conversation Here?
All online communication is not the same. Ricochet requires deep thought and carefully crafted prose to be effective. Twitter is limited to 140 characters which makes it good for a quick barb at best. Mostly it's just a platform for chatter - white noise, really.
Nor is all conversation the same. Real conversation requires active listening. How many times do you run into people who just talk, and talk, and talk, and never listen? That's not conversation. Such people might as well be talking to a lamppost for all it's worth. We should endeavor to teach our children how to be active listeners, that they might become reflective, thinking adults.
Jun '10
Re: Are We Having A Real Conversation Here?
~Paules: All online communication is not the same. Ricochet requires deep thought and carefully crafted prose to be effective. Twitter is limited to 140 characters which makes it good for a quick barb at best. Mostly it's just a platform for chatter - white noise, really.
Nor is all conversation the same. Real conversation requires active listening. How many times do you run into people who just talk, and talk, and talk, and never listen? That's not conversation. Such people might as well be talking to a lamppost for all it's worth. We should endeavor to teach our children how to be active listeners, that they might become reflective, thinking adults.
I agree with Paules.
It all depends. The author says face-to-face conversations unfold slowly. She could have said that they often don't unfold at all.
Face to face is important in deeply personal relationships, but when I want to say something important to my family, I write it (letters to my kids on important events). I don't do this often, but when I do, they know it's important and preservable. Ricochet is the same--it's completely different than texting or Tweeting.
Dec '10
Re: Are We Having A Real Conversation Here?
Agree completely, and I'd add Facebook to the mix. Facebook to me (and I'm fairly active on it) is a purely social medium. I have different levels of "friends" - current good friends, good friends form the past, colleagues past and present, acquaintances, etc.
I tend to keep that medium clean politically. If you were to view just my FB posts, you might have a difficult time determining where I stand on politics. I avoid overly political threads, and tend to hide people who do concentrate on those topics from my news feed.
On Ricochet I'm obviously more free to espouse my politics. But I don't necessarily show all of you pictures of my daughter's latest painting (she's quite good), tell you about a great restaurant, etc.
I tend to think there are just so many more communication options now. I majored in Communications in college.
Jun '10
Re: Are We Having A Real Conversation Here?
Another thought: In an ideal world, all of us would live in the same neighborhood and we'd have these conversations over the fence. I hope to meet many of you someday, but the world is not and never will be ideal. We've been cast far and wide.
Nevertheless, our little electronic community allows us to have conversations that would never have happened in an earlier world. We would have remained utter strangers.
Mar '11
Re: Are We Having A Real Conversation Here?
Of course we're having real conversations. There is no 1eet speak, no n0081e jokes, no id10t slang thrown about, and the crazies get tossed out by the barkeeper. The conversations are slow and drawn out - limited by our typing and spell-checking, but they're thoughtful.
A face to face conversation certainly give more room for nuance, body language, facial expression, and you don't need to italicise or bold face or USE ALL CAPS to make a point, but the same limitiations applied of old to literary corespondance and letters to the editor.
Keeping this private forces the conversations here to a literary level. As usual the NYT misses the point.
Dec '10
Re: Are We Having A Real Conversation Here?
Yeah...ok.: My dog does listen and understands.
. · 47 minutes ago
That's part of the reason we love them.
Nov '10
Re: Are We Having A Real Conversation Here?
I just had a thought. How do we know that Peter Robinson isn't just a cleverly programmed speech bot with a very life-like avatar? I've always suspected his speech is just too perfect to be real; his humor too balanced, his transitions superhuman. It's like he has a massive supercomputer feeding him just the "mot juste" every time. Are we all subjects of a massive experiment to see how gullible we conservatives are?
A young lady I knew at college was extremely well-mannered and very popular because she always knew how to pour oil on troubled water. Atttractive, self-deprecating, bright and warm -- she was universally admired. Well ... almost universally.
Another girl in the dormitory confessed to her one day: "I hate you. I'm sorry, you're just too perfect. How can anyone be so perfect? You're too perfect to be real!"
Our heroine dropped to the floor and scurried humiliatingly across the floor and under a bed in the room. She cheerfully peered back out from between the dust bunnies and said, "I'm sorry. Am I less perfect now?"
It was, unfortunately, the perfect response.
Mar '11
Re: Are We Having A Real Conversation Here?
It would explain his looping of "Just one last question." Stuck in a logic loop no doubt.
Sep '11
Re: Are We Having A Real Conversation Here?
Coming back to this conversation, I am struck again by my overwhelming impression that the writer (to call her a "researcher" is a stretch) is a complete newbie to online communication. Yes--Twitter and Facebook allow you to broadcast the banal. But that's because all of daily conversation is banal.
Wait until you post something like this:
I wrote words to that effect in December, 1991, in a post on the MSBASIC forum of CompuServe. Within hours more than 200 replies were made to that thread--as forum members offered thoughts, prayers, and consolation. And then moved on to research, links to pertinent papers, and an extended discussion of where we might move to better Annie's future prospects.
Many, if not most, of the most substantive conversations I've had in my life have occurred online, ofttimes with people I have never met in "meatspace."
May '11
Re: Are We Having A Real Conversation Here?
John Murdoch: Mollie--
The "researcher" can safely be dismissed as a newbie to online communications.
Sherry Turkle is far from a newbie. She's pretty thoughtful. I'll add a counter example. St. John's College and other similar institutions are premised on learning through conversation, both with foundational texts (e.g., Plato, the Bible, Shakespeare, Locke, Darwin, etc.) and with fellow learners. This kind of experience is unique, allowing students to develop the ability to fully engage others and helping them form habits of mind required for free men and women. Efforts to do similar things online fall far short -- people tend to resolve to defend statements much more inflexibly than they do in person, where they can moderate, find nuance, and develop their thoughts.
May '11
Re: Are We Having A Real Conversation Here?
KC Mulville: Let me throw you a curve.
When I was driving home that night, I thought that was a good thing. These academic studies suggest that "online" is trying to replacehuman community. Well, for some, maybe. But my experience, especially after that meetup, is that "online" can be a nice way to get a headstart. · 3 hours ago
KC, I think you've hit on something here. Magic can happen when the online and offline mesh. That can be a sweet spot. The fear is that certain good habits and practices can be lost with the advent of new media, but it doesn't have to be that way.
May '11
Re: Are We Having A Real Conversation Here?
skipsul: Of course we're having real conversations. There is no 1eet speak, no n0081e jokes, no id10t slang thrown about, and the crazies get tossed out by the barkeeper. The conversations are slow and drawn out - limited by our typing and spell-checking, but they're thoughtful.
A face to face conversation certainly give more room for nuance, body language, facial expression, and you don't need toitaliciseorboldface or USE ALL CAPS to make a point, but the same limitiations applied of old to literary corespondance and letters to the editor.
Keeping this private forces the conversations here to a literary level. As usual the NYT misses the point. · 1 hour ago
Agreed, there's something positive happening here. But one thing to keep in mind: it's not spontaneous. Ricochet is a crafted garden, a space planned and design for certain kinds of conversations. It will succeed to the extent that it adapts to people's habits and natures, and to the extent that its rules adjust to promote behavior that leads to engaging conversation. That's not an easy thing to do -- it's a kind of work.
Edited on April 23, 2012 at 6:47pmJan '11
Re: Are We Having A Real Conversation Here?
bagodonuts
Magic can happen when the online and offline mesh. That can be a sweet spot. The fear is that certain good habits and practices can be lost with the advent of new media, but it doesn't have to be that way.
Well, I must say that I was surprised by how it worked out. When I first went to the meetup, I was expecting one thing ... and then discovered something unexpected.
Some people are trying to predict how this brave new world will work out ... before we actually engage in it.
Maybe ... we should just keep out eyes open, and pay attention to what experience is actually telling us, instead of pre-imposing our own assumptions about what will happen.
Nov '11
Re: Are We Having A Real Conversation Here?
Some version ofthis question has been asked here on Ricochet about four thousand seven hundred and twenty six million times in the last couple of weeks (e.g., here).
But that's good, because it's an important question, from the examination of which much can be learned . . . except the answer.
Rousseau obviously had an opinion about it.
Whether he was right or wrong, I don't know, but we can thank him for making us uncomfortable about the power of technology, even as we blame him for making us nostalgic for a vague and mythical pre-technological 100% gluten-free past.
A tent-camping trip is usually a pretty good and cheap corrective for the excesses of either mental state.
Semi-random marginally related thoughts:
The person who discovers how to produce an effective all-organic birth control will make billions. His success will mark the death of irony.
When our 39-year old daughter drops by for a visit, if I want to catch her attention, I step into the next room and send her a text.
Feb '11
Re: Are We Having A Real Conversation Here?
Dear Mollie, may I call you Mollie? Anyway, the world around us will always be changing (thank goodness) and there will be good changes and bad changes and all we ever teach our children is that we love them and expect good from them and most of the time we hope we act as we speak. We are not perfect(...especially with regard to all things electronic). But we never stop trying. Conversation (written or spoken) is always a good thing. We each judge what is conversation and hopefully we are kind to those who are "just talking" when we try to tell them that. Kind but firm. I think your kids are fortunate to have you.