Are Traditional Universities Facing Extinction?
Is it possible that at some point in the future traditional universities will begin to disappear? Have the tools for their demise been put in place – the Internet, personal computers, iPads and other tablet PCs, videoconferencing apps, online publishing and online libraries of very affordable and in many cases, free content. What else needs to happen? Visionary entrepreneurs perhaps backed by VC money enticing some of the best professorial talent to leave their current institutions for more lucrative income and profit participation in new online university ventures?
What are parents and students (and in some cases taxpayers) paying for today beyond the acquisition of a diploma? Administrative overhead? Athletic programs? Housing? Maintenance of buildings? Gardeners? Security? Contraception? Liability insurance? Legal counsel? Bail?
What of accreditation? If an online university boasted a more impressive faculty and curricula than say Stanford, Yale, Oxford, Cambridge, Berkeley, Harvard, then how important would traditional accreditation be? Is it possible that at some point a diploma from an online institution may even have more clout than an ivy-covered brick and mortar one?
Yes, all of the important socializing aspects of university life may disappear. Many students, of course, make lifelong friends on campus or find their spouses who may or may not be lifelong mates. University towns have thrived around the traditional university, to serve the needs of faculty, students and staff. So, if the traditional university disappears then by extension, university towns might disappear as well. On a positive note, the more radical hybrid of social/anti-social activities – like protests and riots either motivated by winning or losing a sports title or vandalizing school property because capitalism is of course, evil and unfair would also disappear…at least if the university campus is no longer used as an academic institution.
The extinction of the traditional university, if it occurs, may be a sad chapter in the long history of civilization since most would argue that the university shares a substantial portion of the credit for making us civilized in the first place.
But consider also that the easy availability of college coursework taught by the best professors in the world to those living in less affluent parts of the world who might never haven been able to afford to attend or be qualified for a traditional university may eventually result in another renaissance, enlightenment or technological revolution giving them the opportunity to learn and then create or do amazing things.
So, the question is, will technology, new developments on the horizon and the opportunity to be taught by the best professors in the world make the demise of the traditional university inevitable?
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Jun '10
Re: Are Traditional Universities Facing Extinction?
Beautiful analogy. On the farm I grew up on, we would annually cull our heard of sheep.
As I've read the other thoughts, it occurs to me that Harvard and Yale will always be Harvard and Yale. Both have endowments sufficient to withstand the coming bubble. But lesser entities, and especially state universities, will have to adapt. Lesser private entities will have to adapt or die (I have no trouble envisioning universities declaring bankruptcy). State schools will likely be spared this fate, but state legislatures will, via the power of the purse, force major changes.
As to the "studies" programs, they'll survive in some form at the big private schools, but will wither and die at other institutions. A major that guarantees no possibility of employment must wither.
Dec '10
Re: Are Traditional Universities Facing Extinction?
dogsbody
This is why the most left-wing departments will be in trouble at many campuses. There's no point in graduating with a degree in Peace Studies and $50,000 in debt, and students and families know it. All of the liberal arts departments (including the good ones, such as foreign languages) will be struggling to make ends meet as students opt more and more for pre-professional programs. · 23 minutes ago
So let me get your thought on this - do you see some of the pre-professional programs becoming endangered as well? I've noticed that a lot of kids go in with the "default" of studying business. But most anyone who has been in the business world for more than 2 years knows that what the colleges teach for a business degree bears only passing resemblance to what they need to know out in the world.
Apr '11
Re: Are Traditional Universities Facing Extinction?
From their mediæval beginnings in cathedral schools training secular clergy, there has been a tension in universities between the community of scholars and the rabble of hormone-drenched undergrads without effective adult supervision (look up "goliard"—1275–1325; Middle English < Old French goliart, goliard drunkard, glutton)). So long as the latter was in the minority, however disproportionate their influence on the "'varsity experience", exposing the elite for a few more years to society's cultural heritage was a good thing (see, e.g., Dink Stover at Yale).
The situation started to go south when government got involved, first with the GI Bill, and we reached our present corrupt desolation with middle-class welfare and "equal opportunity" regulations that forced employers to require degrees in lieu of administering their own aptitude/IQ tests. So now 50% of HS grads go to college, when only 15% are capable of the abstract thinking appropriate to college-level studies, and most jobs do not require degrees in real academic programs.
I don't know what will break up this nanny-state interlock, but the e-University will not be self-sustaining. It will depend upon a network of vital traditional campuses.
Dec '10
Re: Are Traditional Universities Facing Extinction?
Grendel:
I don't know what will break up this nanny-state interlock, but the e-University will not be self-sustaining. It will depend upon a network of vital traditional campuses. · 5 minutes ago
I would tend to agree with you. I recently conducted a survey for a company trying to determine what type of transportation management system to install. One of the questions that I asked was "What type of training do you feel is most effective?" The unanimous first choice was "hands on" - let the users get in and play with it. The unamimous last choice was e-training. Anecdotal, but I would tend to agree based on experience.
Jun '10
Re: Are Traditional Universities Facing Extinction?
The Great Adventure!
Grendel:
I don't know what will break up this nanny-state interlock, but the e-University will not be self-sustaining. It will depend upon a network of vital traditional campuses. · 5 minutes ago
I would tend to agree with you. I recently conducted a survey for a company trying to determine what type of transportation management system to install. One of the questions that I asked was "What type of training do you feel is most effective?" The unanimous first choice was "hands on" - let the users get in and play with it. The unamimous last choice was e-training. Anecdotal, but I would tend to agree based on experience. · 12 minutes ago
What if online education was supplemented with hands-on experience where lab time, or field trips were part of the curricula? Does a lab or a hands-on working venue need to be on a university campus? Or can it be a venue that corporate donors sponsor? What of expanded internship programs in company offices? Why do these have to be affiliated with a traditional university? Don't companies have a vested interest in nurturing talent?
Sep '10
Re: Are Traditional Universities Facing Extinction?
Good question. A large proportion of business majors are students who started out as engineering majors and for one reason or another--often their mathematics grades--had to leave engineering. So I don't think that business programs will disappear soon. But there will be more stress on the lower-ranked programs.
Whenever I talk to a business major I strongly encourage him/her to get a summer internship with a good company. Business majors are a dime-a-dozen, so unless you have a personal relationship with a company, your odds of landing a decent job out of college are slim. Btw, this is also true in engineering these days, though their prospects are better.
Jun '10
Re: Are Traditional Universities Facing Extinction?
Larry Koler: ...
I think that this is very plausible, maybe even likely.
What it makes me think about, though, is just what it is that these academies have become today. Is it possible that the fact that they were able to be taken over by Marxists isproof that they were already in decline?Such that the people who really count can't be bothered to be involved with them? University campuses are not -- in any way -- the venue of great movements in our modern society.
Wouldn't it be incumbent upon conservatives who have seen the academy hijacked by Marxists to explore innovative ways to change the rules of the game and disrupt the entrenched institution in a very fundamental way? There seems to be consensus here that the current system isn't adequately addressing the needs of the nation or of private enterprise and instead contributing to a massive debt load that may never be repaid or repaid in a disastrous way. Do we expect the institution of higher education to somehow repair itself? Or do we need a new cultural paradigm?
Dec '10
Re: Are Traditional Universities Facing Extinction?
dogsbody
Good question. A large proportion of business majors are students who started out as engineering majors and for one reason or another--often their mathematics grades--had to leave engineering. So I don't think that business programs will disappear soon. But there will be more stress on the lower-ranked programs.
Whenever I talk to a business major I strongly encourage him/her to get a summer internship with a good company. Business majors are a dime-a-dozen, so unless you have a personal relationship with a company, your odds of landing a decent job out of college are slim. Btw, this is also true in engineering these days, though their prospects are better. · 9 minutes ago
Yeah, and then you have my son - who is about to graduate with a double major in Theology and Educational Ministries and a minor in Scriptures. Somehow I don't see him as becoming wealthy, but I do see his future as being fulfilling.
May '10
Re: Are Traditional Universities Facing Extinction?
If I ruled the educational world, a college business program would include internships so they could learn the nuts and bolts stuff, and would include class work in economics and the history of business and history of business organizations, philosophy, ethics, statistics, etc. I believe that most of what a new employee needs to learn to be successful in a job, they will learn on the job. A college program, if it merits the title, will give them the mental, the "thinking" abilities necessary to get their second job, to move up the chain.
Dec '10
Re: Are Traditional Universities Facing Extinction?
Tom Lindholtz
If I ruledthe educationalworld, a college business program would include internships so they could learn the nuts and bolts stuff, and would include class work in economics and the history of business and history of business organizations, philosophy, ethics, statistics, etc. I believe that most of what a new employee needs to learn to be successful in a job, they will learn on the job. A college program, if it merits the title, will give them the mental, the "thinking" abilities necessary to get their second job, to move up the chain.
I was just thinking... let's say I own a small business - say under 10 employees. I'm looking for someone to become my assistant manager and eventually take over the business, but I'm on a 10 year plan toward retirement. I identify 2 young people just graduating from high school. They're both very bright, learn quickly, very capable.
One of them wants to go spend 4.5 years in college then come to work for me with a starting position of assistant manager. The other one wants to start immediately as a stock boy and work his way up. Which do I choose?
Feb '12
Re: Are Traditional Universities Facing Extinction?
An interesting thread. I've been following it all day, but only have time now to comment. I hope that the tide hasn't gone out on this one yet, nevertheless...
dogsbody
True; we're seeing this at my institution.
My institution, a large state university, has seen modest increases in enrollment over the last several years. However, in my college, which is dedicated to the natural sciences and mathematics, we have seen enrollments increasing at a much more rapid pace (I believe the same is occuring in Engineering). In the Biochemistry major, we've seen a near ten fold increase in students in the last five years. Though anecdotal, it seems to point to a shift in what students view as a viable major.
Jun '10
Re: Are Traditional Universities Facing Extinction?
Brian Watt
...
Wouldn't it be incumbent upon conservatives who have seen the academy hijacked by Marxists to explore innovative ways to change the rules of the game and disrupt the entrenched institution in a very fundamental way? There seems to be consensus here that the current system isn't adequately addressing the needs of the nation or of private enterprise and instead contributing to a massive debt load that may never be repaid or repaid in a disastrous way. Do we expect the institution of higher education to somehow repair itself? Or do we need a new cultural paradigm?
Conservatives have proven simply incapable of having any effect and I don't see that changing any time soon. Look what conservative elites do to someone like Newt Gingrich. Anyone who is effective and draws fire from the left, the conservative elites won't defend and eventually come to regurgitate the same agitprop against him. Sarah Palin -- same thing.
I have come to see that real change does not come from these people but from the real world of entrepreneurs and the logic of what the marketplace dictates. This is why I expect things to change in unexpected ways.
Mar '11
Re: Are Traditional Universities Facing Extinction?
radicalbiochemist, the same thing happened at my school during the late Seventies/early Eighties. It was the pendulum swinging the other way: in the Sixties, the sciences and engineering were lagging in enrollment, and resources had been reallocated to reflect the change. When the College of Engineering tried to get things reallocated again, a mighty stink was raised by all the other departments. I never did hear how the fight came out, as I graduated while they were still locked in combat.
Jun '10
Re: Are Traditional Universities Facing Extinction?
Larry Koler Conservatives have proven simply incapable of having any effect and I don't see that changing any time soon. Look what conservative elites do to someone like Newt Gingrich. Anyone who is effective and draws fire from the left, the conservative elites won't defend and eventually come to regurgitate the same agitprop against him. Sarah Palin -- same thing.
I have come to see that real change does not come from these people but from the real world of entrepreneurs and the logic of what the marketplace dictates. This is why I expect things to change in unexpected ways. · 19 minutes ago
Larry - I think you're essentially agreeing with me - that attempting to change the leviathan of the university institution from within is a non-starter. Better to change it through a market disruption from private enterprise which I suggest in the posting. Or as a perceptive marketeer once said, "If the watch ain't broke, break it!" In the marketplace of ideas the Left has been successful in tilting the playing field but presenting it as though it was fair and balanced. Perhaps it's time to tilt it the other way.
Jun '10
Re: Are Traditional Universities Facing Extinction?
Yes, Brian, we are saying the same thing, aren't we?
We have this dead weight around us but we will still continue to move and develop improvements. I guess I think that Ayn Rand is wrong in her notion that there would come a time when Atlas will shrug and go off on his own. In reality what has happened to all the sclerotic systems of old is that they were superseded. We must treat the left and their clinging to their guns of moribund institutions to the same treatment that MacArthur did in the Pacific with the Japanese and hit 'em where they ain't.
The big difference is that we don't do it from a strategy that is determined from on high and from a central focus but through a distributed process whereby intelligence is localized and a new way forward is seen.
Don't you just love this frackin technology? Out of nowhere this huge unknown supply of gas and oil comes pouring out. The left and the big government types will take a while to go there and hem it in but in the meantime we are making big changes to the economy.
Feb '12
Re: Are Traditional Universities Facing Extinction?
As someone who'd like to see the university change from the inside out, I must confess that the task looks Herculean from my vantage point. The structure has become so top-heavy with calcified bureaucracy/administration, it may be that a market-driven tidal wave is the only remedy.
Even administration inspired/approved initiatives that are ostensibly designed to improve student programs (e.g., various forms of assessment) aren't even asking the right questions. At best these initiatives are an irrelevant waste of time. At worst, they take a course/program where student proficiency is largely a well-defined and empirical matter (e.g., chemistry), and instead insist that student learning be assessed on the basis of "awareness" of the left's favorite agenda items (e.g., anthropogenic climate change).
Jun '10
Re: Are Traditional Universities Facing Extinction?
Can the leftist controlled institutions be killed off by neglect? Certainly funding problems will hurt them but is it possible that their fiefdoms -- which in reality are not organic and not self-sustaining -- will die a silent death?
Commerce and innovation are like life -- they find the most astonishing ways to succeed and move thing forward. The left is full of Luddites because technology and Capitalism scare them.
Feb '12
Re: Are Traditional Universities Facing Extinction?
We shall see here. The customer seems to be expressing a clear preference, but for the kinds of reasons you cite, the university is not especially responsive to the customer. As of yet, there hasn't been a shift of resources to match the shift of student interests.
Jul '11
Re: Are Traditional Universities Facing Extinction?
Unfortunately most schools are either ran by the government or receive so much money from the government it is almost the same thing. When you toss unions into the mix, we have ended up with an industry that has effectively refused to innovate, that is basically doing the same things, the same way, as they have done it for the last 50 years. They can probably keep this up for a while longer, but eventually they are going to have to embrace a “technical automation with technician intervention only during exceptions” model of teaching. This is the model that about every other industry in the country functions under in order to be profitable and eventually the economics will force education to do so also.
May '10
Re: Are Traditional Universities Facing Extinction?
Credentials, my friend, credentials.