An Exercise in Counter-Factual History
Claire Berlinski, Ed. ·
Dec 25, 2010 at 6:08am
So let's imagine Christ had not been born today, or at all. How might the history of humanity have unfolded? Would the Roman Empire have been just as doomed? Was monotheism destined to rise in some form anyway?
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May '10
Re: An Exercise in Counter-Factual History
Do a search on "if Christ had not been born" and some interesting material turns up, including the eponymous book by James Kennedy. Not all of it is dogma either.
To Claire's specific questions: The Roman [edited off a "y" that slipped on the end somehow, really gotta proofread these posts, the "Romany" empire, sheesh] Empire was doomed anyway, no country lasts forever, although we'd still be living in its after effects as we are now.
Monotheism, less certain. Maybe we'd all be Muslims now without the seawall of Christianity for the tide of Islam to beat upon.
Edited on Dec 25, 2010 at 7:17amOct '10
Re: An Exercise in Counter-Factual History
Since monotheism had already come on the scene for several millennia in the form of Judaism, the question is rather; would Judaism have prevailed as the great world religion to the degree that Christianity did? Without Christ, hence the followers who were Christians, the real question then becomes; Would Mohammad have conceived the reactionary religion of Islam?
Islam is the anti-Christianity religion, and itself monotheistic. Seeing the Trinitarian belief of Christianity as polytheistic, with the death and resurrection of Christ as anathema. God cannot die and would never have lowered Himself to the level of bcomming human. Islam came to embody the opposites of Christianity. Grace became law, the state became the expression of the will of Allah, and the rest followed.
As regards Rome and the remainder of history, humanity would have been cursed with a continuum of cyclical progress/regress and still have gone nowhere. It took God's intervention into the cycle of history to give it a forward looking direction and break the cycle. By the way, without that, neither would the technology to indulge this conversation, nor the Western Judeo-Christian mind it takes to conduct it have come into being.
Re: An Exercise in Counter-Factual History
It is worth remembering that the Roman empire in the East lasted a thousand years longer than the Roman empire in the West and that the empire in the East that lived on and on was Christian. This suggests that the fall of the empire in the West had little, if anything, to do with Christianity. In late antiquity, the pressure on the borders -- from the Sassanids in the East and from the Germans in northern Europe -- grew considerable. If the empire in the East was nonetheless able to withstand assault, it was because it possessed in Constaninople a fortress far more formidable than anything existing in the West. Whenever I visit Istanbul, I walk and marvel at the land walls that still survive.
Aug '10
Re: An Exercise in Counter-Factual History
To follow up on Paul's comment, even in the West you can make a case that Christianity helped cement the cultural legacy of Rome. It is true that the dominate was perennially wracked by political struggle with schismatics both within and without the empire. On the other hand, in late antiquity (and even the middle ages in the case of Poland-Lithuania) conversion to Christianity was a way for barbarian kingdoms outside the empire to signal a cultural and political affinity with Rome, even after Rome itself was no more (at least in the West).
Nov '10
Re: An Exercise in Counter-Factual History
During its first 300 years, Christianity faced stiff competition, especially from the Cult of Isis (which appealed to women and the poor) and the Cult of Mithras (which appealed to men and soldiers):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithras
Arguably, Christianity did not "win" until the conversion of Constantine the Great (272-337). So the triumph of Christianity was a very slow process. Even after his conversion, Constantine built monuments to various pagan deities (hedging his bets, perhaps).
In the absence of Christianity, it is safe to assume that another form of monotheism would have become dominant, simply because that was the general direction of religion as it evolved in the West.
That is the real question, yes? Would another religion have been able to resist? Islam extinguished every single culture it ever dominated (that is one reason why Buddhism vanished from northern India). Without a culture founded upon Judeo-Christian principles (along with Roman law and Greek philosophy), Western Civilization would never have been born.
Aug '10
Re: An Exercise in Counter-Factual History
Don't forget Sol Invictus, a public (as compared to mystery) cult that had a lot in common with Christianity.
Which just raises the question of why Constantine converted. (I'm assuming for the sake of argument that it wasn't just a moment of grace before the Milvian Bridge since, as you noted, he continued to patronize pagan cults). In The Rise of Christianity, Rodney Stark makes a pretty compelling case that Christianity was growing rapidly before the Edict of Milan, which effectively reverses the cause and effect of imperial patronage.
Sep '10
Re: An Exercise in Counter-Factual History
No monasticism, no Western World. Case closed. Jacques Barzun.
Sep '10
Re: An Exercise in Counter-Factual History
Emperor Obama.
Nov '10
Re: An Exercise in Counter-Factual History
I imagine an interesting analogy would be China and the Far East. Seems to me that the cultures therein evolved on their own with only minimal impact from the West, and certainly not from Christianity per se. It's always striking that for all it's innovations, technologically and otherwise, how slowly evolving their cultures were. Enlightenment, an eventality of the Christian tradition, lit the spark of change and "progress" that I think is the most dynamic characteristic of western civilization. By contrast, from my laymen's perspective, feudal Japan seemed to exist in a similar fashion for a very long time. Perhaps the world might have evolved similarly, in a more siloed fashion. Question for those far smarter than me... How dependant, if at all, was the evolution of Islam to Christianity's impact on the status quo of Judaism? The Nigerian priest at Mass last night made an interesting distinction...John the Baptist, and his miracle birth to a barren woman was so very Old Testament. Divine birth from a Virgin could nor have been a more striking change from the tradition expected at the time. Merry Christmas everyone.
Nov '10
Re: An Exercise in Counter-Factual History
Which raises the question, would the Christian concept of community have risen to then give rise to the very idea of a community organizer? and without this bona fide, would Obama have risen to the Presidency (or Emperorship)?
A thousand threads to follow...my head hurts at the thought of any other path than a cursory glance at the idea, so I'll just follow the conversation as part of my Christmas entertainment.
Jun '10
Re: An Exercise in Counter-Factual History
No Christ, no Handel's Messiah, 'nuff said.
Nov '10
Re: An Exercise in Counter-Factual History
anon_academic
Don't forget Sol Invictus, a public (as compared to mystery) cult that had a lot in common with Christianity.
Which just raises the question of why Constantine converted. (I'm assuming for the sake of argument that it wasn't just a moment of grace before the Milvian Bridge since, as you noted, he continued to patronize pagan cults).
Apparently, those pagan cults (patronized by Constantine) also included Sol Invictus!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus
May '10
Re: An Exercise in Counter-Factual History
Perhaps more of us would have subscribed to Judaism or Islam, but I do not agree that Western Civilization would never have been founded. Greek philosophy, particularly Greek epistemology, is certainly of tremendous importance. It may be the most crucial historical manifestation in my mind. Roman law is as vital, much of it grounded as it is in Greek philosophy.
But Greek philosophy and Roman law are examples of the scrupulous application of reason, particularly of deductive reason, to the problems of epistemology, metaphysics, and jurisprudence. There is nothing like that in Scripture. The propositions of Christian ethics are not formed via observation and logic, unlike Greek philosophy and Roman law. But the greatness of the West I believe comes from its culture of rationality, first and foremost. I thus have a hard time believing that all would fall if Christianity was naught.
Nov '10
Re: An Exercise in Counter-Factual History
anon_academic
Which just raises the question of why Constantine converted...In The Rise of Christianity, Rodney Stark makes a pretty compelling case that Christianity was growing rapidly before the Edict of Milan, which effectively reverses the cause and effect of imperial patronage.
Stark may be absolutely right. It is entirely possible that Constantine noticed the growing popularity of Christianity and converted partly for political reasons — to stay out in front of the curve, so to speak. But let us be realistic; whenever the Big Cheese converts to a religion, that is bound to give the thing a big boost in momentum. Constantine gave Christianity the Imperial Seal of Approval — no small deal.
As for Constantine's patronage of pagan deities, that would seem to indicate that (A) numerous pagan cults were still very active then, and (B) Constantine was simply being tolerant.
Many Christians assume (wrongly) that, with the advent of Christianity, paganism simply blinked out of existence.
Edited on Dec 25, 2010 at 2:53pmMay '10
Re: An Exercise in Counter-Factual History
Some kind of theism (or better yet some kind of religion) would have simply replaced Christianity. There's no reason to believe that the absence of Christ would have produced a secular void. Humans seek patterns, impute causality to consecutive events, and (at the time) were completely uncertain about the origins of disease, seismic environmental occurrences, etc. Religion allows humans to cope with such uncertainty and provides explanations for these phenomena.
Dec '10
Re: An Exercise in Counter-Factual History
Not having read Barzun must be why, to the contrary, I have always considered monasticism as a retreat into primitive tribalism—which represents everything that the traditions of the West refute.
Every era of our history points to the free flow of ideas, trade, and people as the cause of a vibrant West: across Greece, community constitutions between free men of differing interests emerged in opposition to the insularity of dynastic despotism; in Athens, the gymnasia competed for the voluntary enrollment of the youth who were free to come and go; while in contrast, Medieval monasticism spread at the twilight of Western preeminence in Europe and accommodated the West’s feudalism—i.e. its temporary retrogression into primitive tribalism.
The Renaissance of the West consists of its emergence from the catacombs of monasticism but saying the latter induced the former is similar to saying the tree of Western tradition grew from the soil of Persia—not one or the other bore the fruit of our civilization; it was the freedom of the many who had withdrawn from the habits of monastic-like living that cultivated the return of growth of our Western way of life.
Jun '10
Re: An Exercise in Counter-Factual History
Charles Gordon
Not having read Barzun must be why, to the contrary, I have always considered monasticism as a retreat into primitive tribalism—which represents everything that the traditions of the West refute.
The monasteries of Europe served as the only repository of knowledge in what had been the Western Roman Empire. Not only were books preserved, but also the art of writing itself. You will notice that clergy, cleric, and clerk all share a common root word.
Jul '10
Re: An Exercise in Counter-Factual History
Michael Labeit
...
But Greek philosophy and Roman law are examples of the scrupulous application of reason, particularly of deductive reason, to the problems of epistemology, metaphysics, and jurisprudence. There is nothing like that in Scripture. The propositions of Christian ethics are not formed via observation and logic, unlike Greek philosophy and Roman law. But the greatness of the West I believe comes from its culture of rationality, first and foremost. I thus have a hard time believing that all would fall if Christianity was naught. · Dec 25 at 1:32pm
You may be on to something here, Michael. In classical and post-classical Greece thinkers would not just divide problems by the philosophical schools that address them, but also by nation. They did not mind borrowing, even from barbarians, axioms were tools, theorems, machines. They recognized problems that were answerable in hebrew terms and Egyptian terms and, later, Roman terms and Christian terms. Hebrews traded with and lived with Greeks in the ancient world. And were honored locally to the extent that when Roman emperors decreed that purges of jews should occur in Greek cities, the Greeks were willing and often able to resist. But monasticism was the key.
Jul '10
Re: An Exercise in Counter-Factual History
Charles Gordon
Not having read Barzun must be why, to the contrary, I have always considered monasticism as a retreat into primitive tribalism—which represents everything that the traditions of the West refute.· Dec 25 at 3:27pm
Need to read your Chaucer, my friend. European monasticism ran the full gamut of experiences. Many monasteries were quite posh and littered with the later sons of the nobility, others toed a more reverent and ascetic and or scholarly or vinery line. Sniping between, say, Paulines and Jesuits was the opening act.
But to extend on ~Paules' point, in 14th C. London, if you were looking to have a manuscript copied and you were at the top of the food chain, there were private clerics charging top specie per ream in London, students as such, cheap but unreliable, and the bulk of the industry output, from the monasteries, who provided pages for fee. They kept libraries, some very large, and traded copies with other libraries on a much larger scale than the nobility, theological and secular matter alike.
An awful lot of our classical libraries we owe to this pre-Gutenburg monastic bibliophilia.
Nov '10
Re: An Exercise in Counter-Factual History
The burning question may actually be: What if Christianity dies in Europe tomorrow?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Zza_8qdkg&feature=BF&playnext=1&list=QL