An Alternative Sunday Morning Debate
Claire Berlinski, Ed. ·
Sep 4, 2011 at 5:04am
Do Americans exhibit the virtue that is necessary to support a republican government?
Thanks to Genferei for suggesting the topic.
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May '10
Re: An Alternative Sunday Morning Debate
In Illinois we exhibit the vice necessary to support a democrat one.
May '10
Re: An Alternative Sunday Morning Debate
Clearly, the answer is no.
Virtue and character are forged primarily in the family, and secondarily by the rest of society which includes but is not limited to the schools and the messages sent by government.
The family has been undermined systematically for at least a generation. This is the biggest tragedy that has befallen our great country, not only for the impact it has on public life but also on people's private lives.
Our schools are teaching watered-down, leftist-compliant virtues and character if they teach any at all. The prevailing message from the rest of society is to satisfy yourself and your impulses, and not to care about others or about any kind of greater good. Unless by "greater good" they mean bigger government, which is usually just another way of shirking personal responsibility for oneself and one's fellow human.
We are not completely gone. There are still strong families in spite of the still-rising trends in family breakdown. The Millennial generation has a stronger personal desire to help others, even if it is often guided to wrong causes by leftist indoctrination. Our hope is not completely lost, so let's continue to fight.
Mar '11
Re: An Alternative Sunday Morning Debate
Not enough of us.
Dec '10
Re: An Alternative Sunday Morning Debate
You excepted of course.
May '10
Re: An Alternative Sunday Morning Debate
The way the question is phrased, "Do we exhibit...?" is easily answered as 'no.' However, it is my belief that we, as Americans, absolutely do have the virtue necessarily to support a republican government. It is dormant though and needs to be awakened. By whom and under what manner is what needs to be explored.
We must reverse the generations of progressive thinking that has enfeebled our populace and created a monster of dependencies that cascade throughout our society.
I refuse to give up on this country. We were created by a number of (dare I say it?) geniuses 230+ years ago and to allow at this point we no longer have the virtue is to say to our founders we are not worth of our inheritance.
Ben Franklin's comment about which form of government they were trying to create may be coming true. I, for one, wish to keep it.
Jul '11
Re: An Alternative Sunday Morning Debate
Ahhhh, Chicago, the city that works....just don't as how.
May '10
Re: An Alternative Sunday Morning Debate
Um, "worthy of our inheritance." Sorry.
Jul '11
Re: An Alternative Sunday Morning Debate
I had a chance to leave a few years back and have a very comfortable life in Australia or New Zealand. After not too long a debate I decided that this will always be my country and I'd rather go down fighting for the honor and decency I consider at the very heart of my still great country. Plenty of selfish morons and leftist pigs out there but I see good all around me and try to reflect that as well.
Sep '10
Re: An Alternative Sunday Morning Debate
Certainly not as reported by the mainstream media. Mercy Otis Warren, a correspondent of John and Abigail Adams and numerous other revolutionaries as well as the author of the first U.S. history by a woman, believed that true liberty can only result from a virtuous citizenry and cannot be managed or maintained by purely institutional manipulation. In the eighteenth-century, virtue meant thrift, civic engagement, intellectual humility and perseverance, and a willingness to bear the burdens of life. It also meant differentiating between virtuous and non-virtuous actions (and people). It was tough but not intellectually and emotionally chaotic. Contemporary America appears to be going in the opposite direction. Today, virtue rests more on the result of a given action than on the action itself. Civic engagement has become the purview of the state. Burdens are viewed as alien, even evil. The short view has taken hold. At least, that's what we read and what we see on TV. But if this website is any indication (I think and hope that it is), civic virtue is alive and well, waiting respectfully, humbly, beneath the chaos of contemporary belief and ready to reemerge from among the ruins.
May '11
Re: An Alternative Sunday Morning Debate
Chris Deleon:
Virtue and character are forged primarily in the family, and secondarily by the rest of society which includes but is not limited to the schools and the messages sent by government.
I would say that virtue and character is formed ONLY by family and religious faith based on the Golden Rule.
But family and religious faith require hard work and America is becoming lazy. More and more Americans are buying the "Let Gov't. do it" line because it doesn't require any work.
It's a free lunch.
So, I think the question is not do we have the virtue and character but do we have the energy? The Tea Party seems to. I am hopeful it is enough.
Mar '11
Re: An Alternative Sunday Morning Debate
I for one see private virtue everywhere around me as I deal with people living their private lives. It's a small minority which doesn't want to do that which is right when it comes to them and their families, and I believe most of us would say the same. I do think, however, that we've allowed there to be a disconnect between private virtue and its public manifestation. We've become conditioned to the notion that license is liberty, and an "anything goes" culture is the end result. We're afraid to discuss the need to extend private virtue into our public affairs because to do so allows those who define popular culture to portray us as luddites who want to stop the party. However, I also believe that the pendulum will turn, for suicide is not a natural impulse.
Oct '10
Re: An Alternative Sunday Morning Debate
I think republican virtue has waned in America, but it hasn't died out yet. Sure, our society is rapidly heading towards crisis, but as Churchill said, we Americans always do the right thing, once all the alternatives have been exhausted.
Mar '11
Re: An Alternative Sunday Morning Debate
Foxman
You excepted of course. · Sep 4 at 6:18am
Actually, I was excepting us. I think the Tea Party is composed of people very interested in the virtue necessary for a republican government.
Jun '10
Re: An Alternative Sunday Morning Debate
They are more apt to act responsibly when their backs are up against the wall such as during WWII. One reason I am impressed with the Tea Party is I see it as a grass roots, citizen’s movement that grew out of a real and profound concern that our government is out of control and that we are on the cusp of bankruptcy. I believe that there are enough people out there who will rise to the occasion when needed…granted they may live in Muleshoe, Texas, Dahlonega, GA or Cripple Creek, CO where the Mainstream Media pays them no attention, but we are there and we will act at the appropriate time.
Oct '10
Re: An Alternative Sunday Morning Debate
Pilli
I would say that virtue and character is formed ONLY by family and religious faith based on the Golden Rule.
Sep 4 at 7:11am
Some of us don't have any religious faith, and yet are still virtuous and live life through the proper principles. I do agree that a strong family upbringing is important, though.
It is definitely possible to live a moral life even if you don't necessarily believe those morals come down from a higher authority.
Jun '10
Re: An Alternative Sunday Morning Debate
The problem with the question is that virtue is not quantifiable by any known metric. How do you measure an abstract principle? We can measure the amount of U235 necessary for an explosion down to the last milligram, but how many pounds of virtue does it take to redeem a nation?
I'm not suggesting the questions above are merely rhetorical. I think the answer lies somewhere in the realm of public attitudes and sentiments. Let us define "personal responsibility" as a public good and "dependency" as a vice. Do you agree or disagree with the following statement: "It's the government's responsibility to meet the material needs of its people." If you ask a random sample of ten-thousand Americans, your answer becomes quantifiable.
Next we have to interpret our data. At what point does a belief in vice become fatal to a community or nation? Since liberals don't believe in hard concepts about right and wrong, we don't need to consider their arguments. This is our survey based on our assumptions not theirs. My guess is that we retain some virtue as a nation, but not enough to keep us from tumbling into the abyss.
Apr '11
Re: An Alternative Sunday Morning Debate
It was the Romans who first called them Virtues, i.e the essences underlying "Manliness." The Greeks called them simply "Arete" or "Excellences." Classically speaking there are but 4: Courage, Temperance, Justice and Prudence. Few are endowed by nature with these traits; fortunately they can be taught. Virtue is taught by pointing to paradigmatic examples of virtuous acts. Virtues are learned by imitation and practiced until they become ingrained as habits. At least that's what Aristotle thought.
Sadly in our own time what passes for virtue is little more than a drippy sentimentalism. An ostentatious display of emotion or a militantly self-righteous demand for pity.
The Founding Fathers envisioned a Republic of Virtue based on universal truths. But despite what our founding documents say these truths are not "Self-Evident." The natural political order is to have a King; Self-Government is learned behavior.
Survival as Republic of Virtue must begin with the words "This story shall the Good man teach his son..." For a As Ronald Reagan said, "Freedom is never more than one generation from extinction
Edited on Sep 4, 2011 at 9:42amAug '11
Re: An Alternative Sunday Morning Debate
It depends on what you mean by Republican Virtue -- the Founders notions (see Leslie Watkin's comment) or the ancient notions. They are quite different although not unrelated.
Let me play the devil's advocate for a moment....
For Aristotle and the ancients, republican virtue was a characteristic of an elite class of fairly wealthy, very educated people with a great deal of time to devote to politics -- in part because they didn't have to work for a living and weren't engaged in commerce. They were motivated not by the pursuit of their own good, but by the pursuit of the good for all the citizens of the community. Given that notion of republican virtue, one could argue that the present administration is brimming with it. This is how we get proclaimed socialists who are not the least bit embarrassed staying at $3,000/night hotels, or people who genuinely care for the poor, who vacation on Martha's Vineyard. They see themselves as fulfilling that model of republican virtue.
Even if their policies were working (which they are not) is this what we want or need in America today?
Aug '10
Re: An Alternative Sunday Morning Debate
Grantman: The way the question is phrased, "Do we exhibit...?" is easily answered as 'no.' However, it is my belief that we, as Americans, absolutely do have the virtue necessarily to support a republican government. It is dormant though and needs to be awakened. By whom and under what manner is what needs to be explored.
We must reverse the generations of progressive thinking that has enfeebled our populace and created a monster of dependencies that cascade throughout our society.
I refuse to give up on this country. We were created by a number of (dare I say it?) geniuses 230+ years ago and to allow at this point we no longer have the virtue is to say to our founders we are not worth of our inheritance.
Ben Franklin's comment about which form of government they were trying to create may be coming true. I, for one, wish to keep it. · Sep 4 at 6:28am
Thanks for the positive/hopeful attitude. It is so easy to see only the negative these days.
Jun '11
Re: An Alternative Sunday Morning Debate
Is Security or Freedom the more dominant urge of the average Joe or Jane American these days?
I must admit that I don't see in my life that we mostly choose Freedom. Its drilled into us everywhere. "Your benefits." "Your rights to healthcare." "The government needs to do something."
We foster the urge to be taken care of now over the American spirit of Live Free or Die.