Allen West Gets it Right
Tom Lindholtz ·
January 14, 2012 at 5:29pm
Finally, a responsible adult speaks out on Urinegate. You can read Allen West's response here.
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Comments:
Sep '10
Re: Allen West Gets it Right
I'm with you, Mothership. Recognize but realize. The media act like war is the same thing as the Super Bowl. That the same rules apply. There's no way to deal with filth without getting your hands at least a little dirty. Afterwards, you wash up, ask for forgiveness, and go on as before, though wiser, knowing you might well have to do it again.
Mothership_Greg: Michael Totten said it far better than I did a long time ago:
This is what I was getting at: moral relativism. I do find it disheartening that people on Ricochet would pretend that the actions of certain soldiers at Abu Ghraib were not disgusting and dishonorable, even if those actions are nothing, NOTHING when compared to the horrors of say, Amna Suraka, a place I had never heard of before reading "In the Wake of the Surge".
· Jan 14 at 9:19am
Dec '10
Re: Allen West Gets it Right
Paul D Lawyer:
Abusing a enemy's corpse is wrong not because of what we do to the corpse, or to the tender sensibilities of the corpse's murderous comrades, but because it cheapens us. · Jan 13 at 7:24pm
I agree completely with this sentiment. I think justice would be served by slapping the tinkling Marines with some sort of misdemeanor and a couple days off to examine their consciences. If their consciences come up clean, who am I to judge?
But, the cameraman? He's the guy who deserves harsher treatment. First, the lack of judgment in filming the incident is appalling. And then posting it somewhere for public consumption is tantamount to betrayal. He may not have intended it that way, it may have been a temporary lapse in judgment, or as outstripp says, a lack of self-consciousness, but clearly the result has tarnished the reputation of our forces, even if it's ever so slightly. His career needs to be over. He's not Marine-worthy.
P.S. I love and support Allen West.
Aug '10
Re: Allen West Gets it Right
Mothership_Greg: Michael Totten said it far better than I did a long time ago:
This is what I was getting at: moral relativism. I do find it disheartening that people on Ricochet would pretend that the actions of certain soldiers at Abu Ghraib were not disgusting and dishonorable, even if those actions are nothing, NOTHING when compared to the horrors of say, Amna Suraka, a place I had never heard of before reading "In the Wake of the Surge".
· Jan 14 at 9:19am
Disgusting and dishonorable don't imply criminality . That's why we only impeached Clinton instead of convicting him. If you want to be equivalent about stuff.
And moral relativism is a very dangerous place anyway. Objectively, I question the actual injury . All the cultural stuff is subjective.
Edited on January 14, 2012 at 7:01pmNov '11
Re: Allen West Gets it Right
flownover
Mothership_Greg: Michael Totten said it far better than I did a long time ago:
This is what I was getting at: moral relativism. I do find it disheartening that people on Ricochet would pretend that the actions of certain soldiers at Abu Ghraib were not disgusting and dishonorable, even if those actions are nothing, NOTHING when compared to the horrors of say, Amna Suraka, a place I had never heard of before reading "In the Wake of the Surge".
· Jan 14 at 9:19am
Disgusting and dishonorable don't imply criminality . That's why we only impeached Clinton instead of convicting him. If you want to be equivalent about stuff.
And moral relativism is a very dangerous place anyway. Objectively, I question the actual injury . All the cultural stuff is subjective. · Jan 14 at 10:00am
Edited on Jan 14 at 10:01 am
#26.
Mar '11
Re: Allen West Gets it Right
Claire Berlinski, Ed.: I don't think this story is getting much attention at all outside of the US. It seems to have Americans mesmerized, though.
See if you can find any reference to it in the press overseas. It was a brief blip, then it fell off. · Jan 14 at 9:00am
That is precisely the point. This should be a minor incident, some marines reprimanded, life goes on. Yet our leadership in Washington seems intent making this into some massive imbroglio, with a good portion of the US media chomping at the bit to aid in the effort. At times it seems the most formidable opponents of our armed forces are not the enemies they face on the field of battle but damn REMFs.
Mar '11
Re: Allen West Gets it Right
Roberto
Jimmy Carter
Mothership_Greg
Are you arguing that detainees were not abused at Abu Ghraib? · Jan 13 at 7:22pm
Define "abused." · Jan 13 at 7:30pm
Are you looking for a fight? Whatever truly happened at Abu Ghraib many Americans believe the worst. Don't shoot the messenger. If many US citizens believe complete and unmitigated [nonsense] it makes no sense to be angry with someone who has told you what others are saying. · Jan 13 at 7:55pm
Edited on Jan 14 at 10:01 am
Hmm, my first Ricochet CoC edit. I feel I have finally arrived.
Mar '11
Re: Allen West Gets it Right
Boy, the MSM was quick to cover that, eh? God forbid they should cover the military virtues as something worthy in themselves!
Allen West is right. It was outrageously stupid to film this, to do it in the first place was a breakdown of discipline: these Marines should be punished, and their NCOs and Officers too. Killing a man is enough. A good NCO or officer would know when its time to put the camera away and when its time to offer counsel and discipline his men (and how--the NYT, wouldn't understand proper discipline if it cuffed and stuffed them.)
All of these critics who have not served in uniform are children. Since antiquity it has been known that war is horror of mothers. Weeping and rending of garments is not what men do. We deal with war in another way. These Marines were wrong because they allowed passion to trump discipline and unit integrity: they allowed anger and the quest for infamy to overcome order. But before all of that: they had virtue, they were sturdy and fierce.
Those words mean something, NYT. They don't just refer to reporters who "ask tough questions" before cocktail parties.
Mar '11
Re: Allen West Gets it Right
Meanwhile: please, please, let us say to the enemies of liberal democracy for once in our generation, in one speech:
"Did you, cowards, suspect we were weak; that we lacked the ability and will to deliver justice to your front door? Did you suspect that we were unable to summon the awe of force? That we would bow before tyranny, death, and horror before raising our fist in anger?"
"Think again and Behold!"
"In our time, yes, there are some who will sit. There are some who would cower rather than fight. There are some who champion civility so far that they are incapable of summoning the ferocious virtues needed to preserve it. But. But. The United States?"
"Did you mistake us for one of those countries that sits? One of those nations unable to call forth the marshall virtues? If you did, you wouldn't be the first. The 20th century is littered with powers crushed by our military might who thought, here or there, that they knew us. Today they are in ruin and collapse. Those in the west who accepted our offers? They prospered."
"So, today? In the United States? We don't sit. We stand."
Nov '11
Re: Allen West Gets it Right
Crow's Nest: Boy, the MSM was quick to cover that, eh? God forbid they should cover the military virtues as something worthy in themselves!
Allen West is right. It was outrageously stupid to film this, to do it in the first place was a breakdown of discipline: these Marines should be punished, and their NCOs and Officers too. Killing a man is enough. A good NCO or officer would know when its time to put the camera away and when its time to offer counsel and discipline his men (and how--the NYT, wouldn't understand proper discipline if it cuffed and stuffed them.)
All of these critics who have not served in uniform are children. Since antiquity it has been known that war is horror of mothers. Weeping and rending of garments is not what men do. We deal with war in another way. These Marines were wrong because they allowed passion to trump discipline and unit integrity: they allowed anger and the quest for infamy to overcome order. But before all of that: they had virtue, they were sturdy and fierce.
Those words mean something, NYT.
Well said.
Apr '11
Re: Allen West Gets it Right
I'm with Mothership here. It's dispiriting that so many folks here don't condemn the actions of the Marines in this video & behind the camera. It's beyond political posturing. The MSM may be making much hay of it, but the MSM did the same & more under GWB, and that's beside the point that this video wasn't the product of the MSM. It's the product of several members of the USMC, hopefully only temporarily at a moment of utter ethical lapse.
I agree with Col. West about the disciplinary action he recommends, but can't agree with the whole "shut up if you haven't been there" notion. That's not how it works in America. There are myriad reasons why someone may or may not have served in the armed forces. But all Americans, young and old, weak and beggarly, left/right/center-right, etc. pay these men (too little, I'm sure) to do their duty. They went beyond that duty here. They are an all-volunteer force, not an army of conscripts. They're fighting for the rights we exercise when we say, rightly, "shame on this."
Jun '10
Re: Allen West Gets it Right
Gen. Victor Ball:
I agree with Col. West about the disciplinary action he recommends, but can't agree with the whole "shut up if you haven't been there" notion. That's not how it works in America. There are myriad reasons why someone may or may not have served in the armed forces. But all Americans, young and old, weak and beggarly, left/right/center-right, etc. pay these men (too little, I'm sure) to do their duty. They went beyond that duty here. They are an all-volunteer force, not an army of conscripts. They're fighting for the rights we exercise when we say, rightly, "shame on this." · Jan 14 at 2:16pm
Amen. This behavior is inexcusable, and our country deserves better of us. Rep. West should have stopped talking after he covered that.
Dec '11
Re: Allen West Gets it Right
Where's the uproar from the Left over FGM, facial acid baths, 'honour' rapes, stoning for adultery? Maybe they can channel Daniel Pearl and ask him for comment?
Apr '11
Re: Allen West Gets it Right
M1919A4: Col. West is absolutely correct. Bishop Paul Moore spoke of playing catch with the skulls of Japanese soldiers during WWII and E. B. Sledge's book With the Old Breed recounts his reaction at seeing such acts (as well as at seeing what the enemy had done with living prisoners and the corpses of American dead). You will find similar accounts in books like Geo. MacDonald Fraser's Quartered Safe Out Here.
I sometimes wonder whether anyone who has not been in infantry combat is fit to judge the actions of those who have been. · Jan 14 at 9:08am
Victor Davis Hanson does a very good write up on E.B. Sledge's work.
When I first heard of this incident I thought of E.B. Sledge.
Nov '11
Re: Allen West Gets it Right
Bill Kristol has a good take on this:
I highlighted the word sanctimoniously, because it comes to my mind so frequently when I hear Leftists speak.
Apr '11
Re: Allen West Gets it Right
The acts reported in this story are simply indefensible. Even Col. West appears to concur they are reprehensible. Trotting out platitudes, however, such as "War is Hell," or pointing out that others have done worse (e.g. Sledge) or that our enemies wouldn't agonize over these actions, and in fact would happily stoop to even lower acts, or to point the blame for this at the Current Occupant of CinC, are no sort of justification. War is war. Hell is, regardless of one's experience of war, something far greater in degree and significance. Take refuge in bromides at your own risk. Like I said above, these actions are repugnant regardless of politics. I submit to you that if we can't see that clearly, we have lost these soldiers, and much more, before they were ever deployed.
Nov '11
Re: Allen West Gets it Right
No one is trying to pin the actions of the urinating Marines on Obama. The issue is with the Administration's reaction to it, as Kristol points out:
No, urinating on human remains is not defensible, and we should not try to defend it, or celebrate it, as I have seen some do on Ricochet. The Taliban are still fellow members of the human race, despite their best efforts, and Western civilization cannot stand if we descend into tribalism, where "All men are created equal" is no longer accepted, but "All men are created equal, except for terrorist scum". There are no exceptions to "All men are created equal". The question here is the rhetoric of Administration officials, and massive media coverage, when there is so much less coverage of
Aug '10
Re: Allen West Gets it Right
Thanks Mothership for finding the Kristol quote. Once again he has clarified things , though no one seems to come out and accuse the trio ( Obama/Panetta/Clinton) of what I suspect is appeasement talk preparation for the Taliban negotiations. Maybe the Marines were boorishly critiquing Joe Biden's declaration that " the Taliban are not our enemy" . WFLTWNE ?
Nov '11
Re: Allen West Gets it Right
real atrocities, such as the Christmas Day bombing in Nigeria, or
Should we hold our troops to a much higher standard than terrorists? Absolutely. Does corpse desecration merit more media coverage than the murder of hundreds of innocent civilians? No, no matter where in the world the murder occurs. Terrorism must be discredited and destroyed, and our media should help with that cause, not apologize for and ignore the horrors that these monsters perpetrate.
Aug '10
Re: Allen West Gets it Right
Mothership_Greg:
Should we hold our troops to a much higher standard than terrorists? Absolutely.
We should have been "holding our troops" in Camp Adder near the pilgrimage route close to Basra. We should have been defending the people of Iraq from what we knew would happen.
We should know how to fight a war. We should be brave enough to admit our mistakes and send back in enough men to stop this madness. We should show the world that we do care about the future of Iraq.
We shouldn't have to put up with a president who beat and run and tries to criminalize the behaviour of a few of the best people in the world in order get credibility with the worst people in the world.
Edited on January 15, 2012 at 3:59pmDec '10
Re: Allen West Gets it Right
Nobody, I haven't met Rand Paul yet but I think I'd really like him. I worked a little for Allen at his HQ in his 2010 campaign. Let me tell you immediately that with Allen what you see is what you get. Straight shooter all the way. It was probably that combat battalion commander thing that formed him. If you think about it, in that job, 1,000 men rely every minute of every day on your integrity.
Yet, there was more to Allen, very intelligent, you wouldn't think of a combat military guy as an intellectual but you listen to his speeches and out comes a very deep mind. Then you meet his wife, intelligent, able, no clinging vine, just like Allen with that calm dedicated selflessness. A very special women. (cont.)