All You Bigots Who Think Gays Want To Indoctrinate Children - Turns Out You Were Right
There has long been a debate about teaching homosexuality in public schools. Many straight parents don't think the topic is related to the three Rs and should be left to home and religious instruction.
Gay activists think schools should teach about homosexuality with a positive value judgment, regardless of the religion of the student.
One of the sub-topics in the debate usually starts with an allegation that Gays are trying to indoctrinate children to orient them toward homosexuality, and the retort from Gays that those parents are simply homophobic bigots since Gays have no interest in indoctrination.
Well, a writer for a website called Queerty named Daniel Villarreal has decided to come out of the closet of truth and make a confession. He writes:
They accuse us of exploiting children and in response we say, “NOOO! We’re not gonna make kids learn about homosexuality, we swear! It’s not like we’re trying to recruit your children or anything.” But let’s face it—that’s a lie. We want educators to teach future generations of children to accept queer sexuality. In fact, our very future depends on it.
The honesty is at least refreshing.
The troubling part is the use of the word "recruit." I have no problem if the subject of homosexuality is addressed in school from the point of view of bullying or the value of human compassion for those who are not like you. But "recruit" conjures up ideas of seduction and child abuse.
If they are looking for a positive value judgment, Gay activists (who in my experience don't represent well the views of the average homosexual) often ruin their chances of earning the trust it takes to teach values.
For instance, that same website Queerty, in a rather odd attempt to teach children what they see as a righteous cause, promotes a video showing children dropping the F-Bomb.
Anyone who would put a child on video acting that way isn't going to get the opportunity to teach my children anything, I promise you.
Often times activists for a cause can be their own worst enemy.
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Jun '10
Re: All You Bigots Who Think Gays Want To Indoctrinate Children - Turns Out You Were Right
I have a theory about why homosexuality, even apart from religious belief, creeps us out.
Go back to the time of living in prehistoric tribes. Each tribe was really two tribes: the men and the women. The men and the women had different roles, and the men lived together 24/7, like brothers, hunting, and the women lived together 24/7, like sisters, doing everything else that wasn't hunting. In that kind of society, to be homosexual was to violate your brother-hunter relationship, or your sister-child-raiser relationship in a way that is close to incest. Think Army platoon. In wartime, they become closer than brothers. In that family closeness, within the "male tribe," or the "female tribe," a sexual relationship would seem as if it's happening between siblings. That's creepy. Human instinct tells you to recoil from it.
Nov '10
Re: All You Bigots Who Think Gays Want To Indoctrinate Children - Turns Out You Were Right
Tommy, Villareal says in the article:
"I and a lot of other people want to indoctrinate, recruit, teach, and expose children to queer sexuality AND THERE’S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT."
Clearly, he has work to do, not only on his grammar, but also on his rhetoric. The phrase "expose children to queer sexuality" just isn't going to rally the conservative heartland.
But a question: Would you support doing the opposite--namely, indoctrinating children to think that there is something wrong with homosexuality? (Note: not with being a homosexual, but with the condition or practice of homosexuality.)
(I'm also assuming you personally think homosexuality is wrong. If not, let me know.)
Christianity often teaches--there isn't unanimity on this score--that homosexuality is wrong. That is, it often part of its unofficial "doctrine" that homosexuality is wrong. Now, is it proper for adults or educators to press this tenet of the "doctrine" on children?
Or should everyone scrupulously avoid biasing the judgments children make about homosexuality until they attain the age of reason?
If you think not, then you would not regard indoctrination itself as always being objectionable, merely the content of the doctrine sometimes being promulgated.
Edited on May 20, 2011 at 3:47amRe: All You Bigots Who Think Gays Want To Indoctrinate Children - Turns Out You Were Right
Aodhan,
Thanks for the questions.
I'm with those parents who simply think this is a topic so unrelated to the three Rs that it doesn't have a place in public school.
So I wouldn't want a wrongness of homosexuality taught any more than than I would want righteousness of homosexuality taught.
Nov '10
Re: All You Bigots Who Think Gays Want To Indoctrinate Children - Turns Out You Were Right
The real--the hidden--objective of teaching children about homosexuality is to obliterate the distinction between public and private. That's precisely what it means to sexualize children. Our sexuality--the sexual act--is the most private of phenomena. Once you debauch the public mind to such an extent* that it considers decent to openly flaunt what any morally decent society hitherto considered inescapably private, you habituate a society in the pursuit of increasingly base/predatory passions to the exclusion of reason and personal morality. You habituate people in slavishness -- the Left's most obvious goal.
Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as "homosexuals" or "heterosexuals." We're just people. People can do with their genitalia whatever they like. Probably no more than 0.5 percent of the male population are irretrievably "gay"--who quite literally would be dysfunctional and could not, er, "perform"--in a traditional marriage.
And somewhere around eight percent of men have some varying degree of same-sex attraction. When our society was politically more healthy, such men successfully married women.
___
* I've encountered few greater examples of rebarbative contemporary public insanity than what's on display in this "dropping the F-Bomb" video.
Edited on May 20, 2011 at 4:01amNov '10
Re: All You Bigots Who Think Gays Want To Indoctrinate Children - Turns Out You Were Right
etoiledunord: I have a theory about why homosexuality, even apart from religious belief, creeps us out.
Go back to the time of living in prehistoric tribes. Each tribe was really two tribes: the men and the women. The men and the women had different roles, and the men lived together 24/7, like brothers, hunting, and the women lived together 24/7, like sisters, doing everything else that wasn't hunting. In that kind of society, to be homosexual was to violate your brother-hunter relationship, or your sister-child-raiser relationship in a way that is close to incest. Think Army platoon. In wartime, they become closer than brothers. In that family closeness, within the "male tribe," or the "female tribe," a sexual relationship would seem as if it's happening between siblings. That's creepy. Human instinct tells you to recoil from it. · May 20 at 3:26am
Are you attributing residual homosexuality to prolonged periods of peace and excessive intergender contact?
Clearly, the devil makes work for idle hands!
May '10
Re: All You Bigots Who Think Gays Want To Indoctrinate Children - Turns Out You Were Right
Ah, so "some" gays wish to indoctrinate children (as opposed to "gays" writ large as is suggested by the post title).
Nov '10
Re: All You Bigots Who Think Gays Want To Indoctrinate Children - Turns Out You Were Right
Tommy, I agree with you about public schools.
But what about parents, private schools, or a Chrisian community? Should they strive to bias children towards believing that homosexuality is a disorder, a perversion, a liability? Or should they stive to bias children towards believing that it just one variation of human sexuality, meriting no instrinsic evaluation as good or bad? Or should they strive never to bias what children believe about sexual orientation?
Tommy De Seno: Aodhan,
Thanks for the questions.
I'm with those parents who simply think this is a topic so unrelated to the three Rs that it doesn't have a place in public school.
So I wouldn't want a wrongness of homosexuality taught any more than than I would want righteousness of homosexuality taught. · May 20 at 3:54am
Apr '11
Re: All You Bigots Who Think Gays Want To Indoctrinate Children - Turns Out You Were Right
I'm of the belief that this is simply one more example of why the government should not be involved in providing education. Since in most places students are required to attend the school in their district, it provides a captive audience for the gay activists. If you had a system of voucherized or privatized provision of education, a parent that opposed such teaching could leave the school, thus depriving it of business, and if enough parents do it, forcing it to change its ways.
Re: All You Bigots Who Think Gays Want To Indoctrinate Children - Turns Out You Were Right
Aodhan,
I make no objection to parents, private schools and Christian schools teaching what they wish.
Freedom of Association is important.
Jun '10
Re: All You Bigots Who Think Gays Want To Indoctrinate Children - Turns Out You Were Right
Everybody says, same-sex preference is not an on-off property. It exists on a wide spectrum of sexual interest, some part by nature, some part by nurture. So, if it exists on a spectrum, there are a certain percentage of children that could "go either way." And happily so. In that case, it's better for them, and better for their offspring, to be heterosexual. If they can be, they should be heterosexual. We ought never to push them in the other direction. Straight, is what their parents, who love them, would desire for them. It's what their future children would choose, if they could.
Jun '10
Re: All You Bigots Who Think Gays Want To Indoctrinate Children - Turns Out You Were Right
"I'm with those parents who simply think this is a topic so unrelated to the three Rs that it doesn't have a place in public school."
I agree. But even if it's not part of the curriculum, it's likely that the high school has a LBGT tolerance club of some sort.
"Once you debauch the public mind to such an extent* that it considers decent to openly flaunt what any morally decent society hitherto considered inescapably private, you habituate a society in the pursuit of increasingly base/predatory passions to the exclusion of reason and personal morality."
Exactly. I sometimes feel that we are at the point where there is no turning back to elevating reason and personal morality over baser, and publicly celebrated, passions.
Nov '10
Re: All You Bigots Who Think Gays Want To Indoctrinate Children - Turns Out You Were Right
Most estimates of exclusive homosexuality put its prevalence at no more than a couple of percent of the general population, although its prevalence higher in cities and women, well, change their mind more often than men.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_sexual_orientation
http://people.fmarion.edu/tbarbeau/Erotic%20Plasticity2000.pdf
I agree with your point about the state. Public education comes to serve its purposes regarding sexuality and other matters.
But do you think that it would be better if homosexuals could be retrieved? Should they strive to perform as prototypical heterosexuals do?
Robert Lux: The real--the hidden--objective of teaching children about homosexuality is to obliterate the distinction between public and private. That's precisely what it means to sexualize children.
Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as "homosexuals" or "heterosexuals." Probably no more than 0.5 percent of the male population are irretrievably "gay"--who quite literally would be dysfunctional and could not, er, "perform"--in a traditional marriage.
And somewhere around eight percent of men have some varying degree of same-sex attraction. When our society was politically more healthy, such men successfully married women.
Edited on May 20 at 04:01 am
Nov '10
Re: All You Bigots Who Think Gays Want To Indoctrinate Children - Turns Out You Were Right
As is freedom to associate to indoctrinate of the young as one sees fit?
Tommy De Seno: Aodhan,
I make no objection to parents, private schools and Christian schools teaching what they wish.
Freedom of Association is important. · May 20 at 4:17am
Nov '10
Re: All You Bigots Who Think Gays Want To Indoctrinate Children - Turns Out You Were Right
Etoile,
Is it better for fence-sitters to be heterosexual because that is what others want for them, or independently of what others want for them?
Re: All You Bigots Who Think Gays Want To Indoctrinate Children - Turns Out You Were Right
Aodhan: As is freedom to to associate to indoctrinate of the young as one sees fit?
Tommy De Seno: Aodhan,
I make no objection to parents, private schools and Christian schools teaching what they wish.
Freedom of Association is important. · May 20 at 4:17am
May 20 at 4:30am
Association works under the same rules as conspiracy - it requires at least 2 people.
What you seem to describe is evangelizing (secularly).
Jan '11
Re: All You Bigots Who Think Gays Want To Indoctrinate Children - Turns Out You Were Right
Let me draw a parallel. Let's examine something that parents would teach their children, but might be contradicted by a school's "social-engineering," or indoctrination.
Divorce.
Because of my beliefs (many but not all religious), I believe that marriage is forever. I teach my children, occasionally by word but mostly through practice, that when you get married and start a family, that's a sacred bond that you simply don't break. It's forever, and anyone who enters a marriage should be prepared for a life-long, unbreakable commitment. My oldest son has told me how grateful he is that his parents are together, since almost all of his friends come from "broken" homes and he's glad he never had to deal with that.
Suppose the local school decided to teach my kids that divorce is common, so get used to it. Suppose they teach that "forever" is an impossible standard, so don't expect it.
I say that schools aren't the arbiter of values. They don't get to trump or dissuade my children from what I teach and from my values. They don't have that authority.
Oct '10
Re: All You Bigots Who Think Gays Want To Indoctrinate Children - Turns Out You Were Right
Schools have always been places where children learn the "rules" of society. However, there isn't enough time to incorporate the entire social agenda favored by interest groups. The fundamentals are crowded for classroom time. Worse, social warriors turn the teaching of fundamentals into another opportunity to advance agendas.
When I attended the second grade equivalent in Colinton, Scotland, math instruction amounted to drill, drill, drill on arithmetic problems. That's it. No pondering how many cows must be eliminated through population control for reduced flatulence related greenhouse gas emissions to save the planet from evil capitalism. If we wanted to be mathematically advanced little socialists, the faculty may well have thought that a fine thing to consider, and they were going to do their best to make sure we had the math part down pat.
Nov '10
Re: All You Bigots Who Think Gays Want To Indoctrinate Children - Turns Out You Were Right
Hi Tommy,
One evangelizes adults, not children.
By teaching children a moral, politial, or or metaphysical doctrine before they have reached the age of reason, one necessarily indoctrinates them, because their minds are not yet free to rationally reject it.
Note: teaching a doctrine is not the same as teaching about it. This is the difference between indoctrination and education.
My question concerns private indoctrination--in particular, about privately indoctrinating children concerning the morality or immorality of homosexuality. We agree there should be no public indoctrination on this score, either way, funded by the taxpayer. But my question is: should there be private indoctrination, one way or another?
Let me put it bluntly. Suppose you know that, by teaching your child that homosexuality is bad (or good), or by having your child taught the same by some private authority, you could bias your child towards believing homosexuality is bad (or good) or later in life, due to the irrational lingering effects of early indoctrination.
Would you permit such teaching to take place? Would you be content for such teaching to take place? Would you try to ensure such teaching took place?
Or would you oppose it as unfairly manipulative?
Edited on May 20, 2011 at 5:02amRe: All You Bigots Who Think Gays Want To Indoctrinate Children - Turns Out You Were Right
Aodhan,
I thought we already covered this but I could be wrong.
Privately, I have no problem with what parents teach their children or what they learn in the private schools their parents send them to.
We all teach our children what we think will give them advantages. Sometimes we are wrong and sometimes we are right. I wouldn't support all parents being required to follow a text.
Jun '10
Re: All You Bigots Who Think Gays Want To Indoctrinate Children - Turns Out You Were Right
"I say that schools aren't the arbiter of values. They don't get to trump or dissuade my children from what I teach and from my values. They don't have that authority."
They shouldn't, but they do on a daily basis. Even Catholic schools do, regularly contradicting the value system that parents naturally belive is being reinforced at school. (And, by the way, they are paying a fortune to have their children exposed to this Catholic value system throughout the curriculum.)