A Soap Opera Of Biblical Proportions: The Return of St. Pius X
Joe Escalante ·
May 22, 2012 at 3:00am
I'm only moderately familiar with the breakaway Society of St. Pius X, but it's fascinating to watch Pope Benedict's efforts to bring this strict, and seemingly noble, order back into the fold with Rome.
I've been called a "St. Pius The Tenther" as a pejorative, so I've looked them up and watched their youtube videos, but I've never met one. Anyone out there had any experience with them? It seems their leader is game for reconciliation, but the other 3 Bishops not so much.
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Feb '12
Re: A Soap Opera Of Biblical Proportions: The Return of St. Pius X
The reasons for Sedevacantists: All the sacraments were changed following Vatican II. There are a new rite of Ordination (1968), a new Mass (1969), a new rite of Baptism (1969), a new rite of Marriage (1969), a new rite of Confirmation (1971), a new rite of Extreme Unction (1972), and a new rite of Penance (1973), as indeed there are a new Breviary (1970), a new calendar (1969), new holy oils (1970), a new Code of Canon Law (1983), a new Way of the Cross (1991), a new Catechism (1992), a new rite of Exorcism (1998), a new Martyrology (2001),and a new Rosary (2002), not to mention the "new Evangelization" or, in France, the new Our Father, and the new Creed. Vatican II has made all things new, as if to found a new religion.
Re: A Soap Opera Of Biblical Proportions: The Return of St. Pius X
Thank you Rachel. I forgot about this gag.
Jan '11
Re: A Soap Opera Of Biblical Proportions: The Return of St. Pius X
I'm not quite as harsh in my judgment as Donald Todd and others. It is quite clear that some element of the society has gone sedevacantist, of course. Bp Williamson probably has - he thinks reconcilliation is possible and that B16 is an adherent to the "New Religion".
I think it comes down to the fact that most people who attend SSPX chapels or who are drawn to the society do so out of attachment to the TLM. If they could have access to the TLM and unity with the Holy Father most would opt for it.
As to the Council - I think it is misunderstood by traditionalists and liberals alike. The plain facts are:
The worst of the post-concillar mischief comes down to the fact that - like Supreme Court justices and penumbras - parish priests, educators and bishops have missused their authority citing the 'spirit' of the Council.
Edited on May 22, 2012 at 10:41pmJan '11
Re: A Soap Opera Of Biblical Proportions: The Return of St. Pius X
AND in that respect, the early SSPX weren't all that different from liberal bishops and theologians - in fact, in some respects the latter were a lot worse than the society which had a legitimate gripe about the disparate harrasement meted out to them.
It was the 1988 confrontation that finally did it and I think it is legitimate to point out to those who attend SSPX chapels that the Holy See would have reacted in a similar manner with any such group.
Jan '11
Re: A Soap Opera Of Biblical Proportions: The Return of St. Pius X
Austin Murrey
Fake John Galt
The Dominicans are part of SSPX? I thought the "Order of Preachers" were mainstream. · 1 hour ago
The entire order is not part of the SSPX (unless they're hiding it beyond the dreams of the most fervent conspiracy theorist) however it's entirely possible and likely that groups of a religious order would have broken off over the same dispute that lay people and bishops would have. · 7 hours ago
Bingo - remember, there are OP communities in the Anglican Communion as well.
Mar '11
Re: A Soap Opera Of Biblical Proportions: The Return of St. Pius X
Cylon: Here are some articles about the anti-semitism inherent to the society and how they have consistently produced and disseminated anti-semitic literature.
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2009/summer/beyond-the-bishop
Some people on Ricochet actually cite the Southern Poverty Law Center as an authoritative source. Amazing.
May '12
Re: A Soap Opera Of Biblical Proportions: The Return of St. Pius X
May '12
Re: A Soap Opera Of Biblical Proportions: The Return of St. Pius X
I also cited Catholic News Service which largely corroborates the report from SPLC. There are many other corroborating sources I could post as well. Do you dispute the anti-semitism reported in my post, or do you just want to call people liars?
Feb '11
Re: A Soap Opera Of Biblical Proportions: The Return of St. Pius X
Basil Fawlty
Cylon: Here are some articles about the anti-semitism inherent to the society and how they have consistently produced and disseminated anti-semitic literature.
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2009/summer/beyond-the-bishop
Some people on Ricochet actually cite the Southern Poverty Law Center as an authoritative source. Amazing. · 3 hours ago
Basil, this comment is unworthy of your high standards. I would not necessarily link to the SPLC, but there is not a shortage of links to find when you google "SSPX anti-semitism."
As an orthodox Catholic who is married to a Jew, I can tell you that there is anti-semitism among many Catholics. Certainly not most, and certainly I have not had to deal with much of it, but my husband and I could both tell you of conversations and experiences we have had with people who wanted to serve the Lord in holiness but who have very strange and wrong-headed ideas about history and the Jewish people.
Jan '11
Re: A Soap Opera Of Biblical Proportions: The Return of St. Pius X
Actually - I think it is unfair to assert that the SSPX is 'inherently' anti-Semetic. As the SSPX was constituted to preserve traditional Catholic liturgies and customs, that is like saying that those concerns are 'inherently' anti-Semetic.
If anything is 'inherent' it is the tendency of insular groups to see themselves as being under siege. The longer the society maintains separation itself from the Holy See, the more prone to paranoia and conspiricism it becomes.
And, as we know, conspiracy theorists everywhere tragically nearly always take to judenhass in the end.
But to say that the SSPX is 'inherently' anti-Semetic takes it too far.
May '12
Re: A Soap Opera Of Biblical Proportions: The Return of St. Pius X
I don't agree that the SSPX was simply constituted to preserve the latin liturgy and customs. And I say that anti-semitism is inherent because it's founder, Lefebvre, was an anti-Semite and the four bishops he ordained to run his society were anti-semites as well, at least in the case of Williams, and the other three are obviously only too willing to tolerate if not help tacitly promote anti-semitic beliefs. When the head of the society is rotten in this way, one cannot expect to find that this vile set of beliefs doesn't thoroughly permeate the entire community. Do you think it's a coincidence that the prominent SSPXer, Mel Gibson, is repeatedly caught spewing hateful anti-Jewish tirades?
Mar '11
Re: A Soap Opera Of Biblical Proportions: The Return of St. Pius X
I haven't the slightest idea whether SSPX or some of its members can fairly be called anti-semitic. My point was that SPLC is the last place in the world I would go for reliable information on such matters. To cite SPLC as authoritative gives them a credibility they do not deserve. As you recall, they also have designated the Family Research Council and many other organizations they view as "anti-homosexual" as hate groups. If they thought they could get away with it, I suspect the Catholic Church would also be on their list of hate groups for its teachings on homosexuality.
May '12
Re: A Soap Opera Of Biblical Proportions: The Return of St. Pius X
Whatever Mr. Fawlty, I already pointed out that they were not my only source. That you didn't even bother to read either of the links and simply dismissed them out of hand doesn't speak well of your intellectual integrity nor your standing to judge the intellectual integrity of other groups. The SPLC article involves first hand investigation and is well written. That you don't like the values of the SPLC doesn't make them liars and if you would like to to discredit them, I suggest you knock down the merit of their arguments rather than sneering at them. And if you don't even have the curiosity to examine the ample evidence of the SSPX anti-semitic history, as evidenced by your claim that you haven't "the slightest idea whether SSPX or some of its members can fairly be called anti-semitic," but only have contempt to offer those of us who have followed it, I suggest you examine what value you're bringing to this conversation.
Edited on May 23, 2012 at 1:51pmMar '11
Re: A Soap Opera Of Biblical Proportions: The Return of St. Pius X
Mama Toad
Basil Fawlty
Some people on Ricochet actually cite the Southern Poverty Law Center as an authoritative source. Amazing. · 3 hours ago
Basil, this comment is unworthy of your high standards. I would not necessarily link to the SPLC, but there is not a shortage of links to find when you google "SSPX anti-semitism."
As an orthodox Catholic who is married to a Jew, I can tell you that there is anti-semitism among many Catholics. Certainly not most, and certainly I have not had to deal with much of it, but my husband and I could both tell you of conversations and experiences we have had with people who wanted to serve the Lord in holiness but who have very strange and wrong-headed ideas about history and the Jewish people. · 10 hours ago
MT, my comment was not in support of SSPX but in opposition to SPLC. SSPX may well be rife with anti-semitism, but I'd prefer to get my information on the subject from an organization whose stock in trade is other than designating those with whom it disagrees as members of hate groups.
Mar '11
Re: A Soap Opera Of Biblical Proportions: The Return of St. Pius X
Cylon: . That you didn't even bother to read either of the links and simply dismissed them out of hand doesn't speak well of your intellectual integrity nor your standing to judge the intellectual integrity of other groups. The SPLC article involves first hand investigation and is well written. That you don't like the values of the SPLC doesn't make them liars and if you would like to to discredit them, I suggest you knock down the merit of their arguments rather than sneering at them. And if you don't even have the curiosity to examine the ample evidence of the SSPX anti-semitic history, as evidenced by your claim that you haven't "the slightest idea whether SSPX or some of its members can fairly be called anti-semitic," but only have contempt to offer those of us who have followed it, I suggest you examine what value you're bringing to this conversation. · 17 minutes ago
Edited 3 minutes ago
Actually, I read both articles and thought the CNS one was quite balanced. I'll leave it to others to judge the relative value (and tone) of our contributions to the conversation.
Jan '11
Re: A Soap Opera Of Biblical Proportions: The Return of St. Pius X
Cylon:-
I don't want to be cast as a simpatico of the Society but enough is enough. There are too many inaccuracies and factual errors in these sweeping denunciations.
Do you care to tell me why you think +Bernard Fellay - the Society Superior - is an anti-Semite? Didn't he threaten Bishop Williamson?Do you care to explain how on earth the fact that Archbishop Lefebvre said some pretty awful things about Jews means that the SSPX wasn't created to constituted to preserve the latin liturgy and customs but for some anti-Semetic purpose?
If that's the case, do the awful things Nixon said about Jews forever taint the US presidency as a primarily anti-Semitc institution?
And it does nobody's credibility any credit to say Mel Gibson is a "prominent SSPXer". He's a sedevacantist - or at least a sedeprivationist = someone who views the SSPX as being too happy clappy and liberal. It should take a three second google search to determine that.he has no affiliation with the SSPX at all.
So I am sorry, but I must ask ask you to reconsider.
Apr '11
Re: A Soap Opera Of Biblical Proportions: The Return of St. Pius X
Basil Fawlty
I haven't the slightest idea whether SSPX or some of its members can fairly be called anti-semitic. My point was that SPLC is the last place in the world I would go for reliable information on such matters. To cite SPLC as authoritative gives them a credibility they do not deserve.
Not to enter into the debate on anti-semitism (I don't know nearly enough about it), but I agree with Basil that it's poor form to cite to the SPLC, even if the SPLC write, in the manner of a stopped clock, a perfect article. Analogously, the White Nationalist movement produces plenty of accurate information on various historical things, but should not be cited to even on their accurate claims. Doing so both gives them authority and taints the citer.
May '12
Re: A Soap Opera Of Biblical Proportions: The Return of St. Pius X
Well, consider me tainted then. It was the most comprehensive explanation of the evidence presented in the clearest manner, so I cited it. I offered corroboration from a source that would seem less controversial. One would think that the evidence, and the corroboration, would be sobering enough that one would feel an inclination to actually comment on the charges against the SSPX, you know, seeing as this is a thread about the SSPX and all. But instead, the only thing our English sitcom loving scold, and now you, Mr. of England, saw fit to do was disparage a fellow member and open an irrelevant tangent about the Southern Poverty Law Center. Well done, the both of you. I suppose that's not surprising seeing as both of you could read the things Bp. Williamson and others in the society have said and written about Jews and the Holocaust and still somehow wonder whether there exists any anti-semitism within the ranks of the SSPX.
I'm done speaking of the SPLC. If either you or Mr. Fawlty care to discuss the disturbing acts of Mr. Williamson or the other jew haters in SSPX I'll be happy to listen.
Edited on May 23, 2012 at 4:37pmFeb '11
Re: A Soap Opera Of Biblical Proportions: The Return of St. Pius X
When writing an article for our local newspaper, I included links to a variety of sources so that the progressive-lefty editor would not be able to dismiss my arguments out of hand. I included links to a variety of sources that she would "approve" and almost no links to, say, National Review Online or breitbart.
SPLC may not be reliable analysts or reporters in many instances, but I think that derisive mockery of SPLC does not counter Cylon's argument, since he included more than one source for his claim.
Peace!
May '12
Re: A Soap Opera Of Biblical Proportions: The Return of St. Pius X
Leveret: Cylon:-
Do you care to tell me why you think +Bernard Fellay - the Society Superior - is an anti-Semite? Didn't he threaten Bishop Williamson?
I call Fellay anti-semitic because Mr. Williamson has been making and writing such remarks for quite some time, as have other members of the Society. The official publication of the SSPX has published several ugly articles about Jews, and the official bookstores of the society he was in charge of sold books like Protocols and other nasty literature for years under Fellay's leadership. His reprimand and threat to Williamson only came under pressure from Benedict as part of the negotiation to lift the excommunication. Mr. Fellay may not be as rabid or vile an anti-semite as Williamson (or he just may be more subtle and disciplined in how he manifests it), but at the very least, the prolonged tolerance of Williamson's and others' ugly behavior, or cowardice in the face of it, amounts to a form of anti-semitism in itself.
(cont.)
Edited on May 23, 2012 at 5:16pm