A Question of Language
Having taken, and immediately thereafter, forgotten, three years of Spanish lessons in high school, I realize that I neglected an opportunity to learn another language. At the time, however, I was "forced" to take a language and therefore resented and rebelled against it.
Alas.
Now, many years out of college, I have this growing feeling that I should learn a language other than English. This feel is only intensified the more I learn about history and philosophy. There are subtleties and distinct meanings that do not perfectly fit into another language. Essentially, there is something lost in translation.
For example, to be able to read Democracy in America in its native tongue would be wonderful, and I have no doubt that I would gain a more complete understanding of de Tocqueville's masterpiece. I have the copy of Liberty Fund's edition that has the French and English side by side. It's a goal of mine to read it all through in French.
Apparently, it is much harder for an adult to learn a language than it is for a child, the child not having the baggage of a preexisting language structure and set of rules to follow. However, despite the challenges, I have to imagine that learning a new language would truly widen my understanding of the world and increase my ability to think.
My question to you, dear Ricochet, is two fold.
- Which language to I choose?
- What is the best way to learn said language?
A few languages jump out at me.
Spanish: This would be very helpful and useful on a more regular basis. I also have a -- very limited -- understanding of the language. Spanish can be a beautiful language, but it also seems very....common?
French: Quite possibly one of the most beautiful languages, French seems like it would be a very "cultured" (there is simply no way to say that without sounding like a high-brow snob) language. There are many wonderful books of philosophy written in French. I would very much like to be able to go on a political rant in French some day.
Being able to read de Tocqueville, Voltaire, and other French writers in their own tongue would be a great thing indeed.
Not as popular as Spanish -- at least in America -- but still widely spoken.
Latin/Greek: The father of all western languages and civilization. With an understanding of Greek or Latin, I could read the most ancient philosophers in their own tongue. From an intellectual point of view, I imagine that this would be a fine feat indeed.
Sadly, both are "dead" languages and I don't think I'd find much practical use.
German/Russian: Both languages offer their share of genius in the form of a Kant or a Tolstoy, but neither language holds quite the appeal as French to me. Still, either would be wonderful to master.
Now, after I choose a language, what is the best way to learn?
Do I take a class at a local college? This didn't work too well for me in high school, but now I actually want to learn. Having the face to face interaction and daily practice would be very helpful, but it would probably be more expensive and I don't know if it would fit my schedule very well.
Rosetta Stone offers a seemingly good option. Everything I hear makes it seem like a good option, but it is also expensive.
What do you say, Ricochet? Which language would you recommend and how would you suggest I go about learning it?
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Comments:
Nov '11
Re: A Question of Language
Are you pursuing this for personal development and "culture" (to steal your word), or in order to read more books, or for practical daily use and to allow you to communicate with more people?
If the former, decide which language has more books you want to read, or more you find unsatisfactory in translation. If the latter, learn Spanish, unless you travel frequently to other parts of the world.
If it's some combination and for whatever reason you don't particularly want to study Spanish, go with French. Plenty of literature, probably the best language to know in Europe, there are French-speakers along our border, and lots of other places in the world where it would be useful if you're traveling.
That said, as someone who studied French -- and doesn't regret it -- I can't help often thinking that even a little knowledge of Spanish would be so much more practical. You're more likely to actually keep with it when you have actual opportunities to hear it and see it and speak it, and (depending on your location) you're more likely to have those opportunities with Spanish.
Edited on February 14, 2013 at 7:42pmSep '10
Re: A Question of Language
If I had to live with only one modern language other than English it would be French. I personally think you should pursue some Latin which will help you with any Romance language. I've posted suggestions on Latin elsewhere and you may wish to supplement those texts with A Natural History of Latin by Tore Janson and Understanding Language by Donald Fairbairn.
I've always thought of "Latin is to French as Greek is to German" in terms of exceptions and variant forms.
Apr '11
Re: A Question of Language
Study the language where your passion lies! Sounds like French, based upon what you've written.
I studied German in high school and college, and then it lay dormant within the grey matter for almost ten years. I began to teach it to my daughter when she was 2, which was good -- a lot of it came flooding back. A few years after that, I began to cultivate a friendship with a Swiss woman, and now I try to speak German with her, which helps more than I can say. Also, for me, reading the Bible in German is very helpful. I ought to do all these things more often to approach fluency. So, my recommendation for those "living" languages is to find a native speaker and wrangle them into a friendship, and then find a child and teach him or her all that you know. :-)
This is a cool website for short and sassy language lessons: www.babbel.com I like it for grammar reviews. You can try it for free and sign up if you find it useful.
Dec '10
Re: A Question of Language
More for the personal development aspects. I really want to be able to read great works of literature and philosophy in the original language. You are right, though, Spanish would be much more every-day practical.
Dec '10
Re: A Question of Language
Pseudodionysius: If I had to live with only one modern language other than English it would be French. I personally think you should pursue some Latin which will help you with any Romance language. I've posted suggestions on Latin elsewhere and you may wish to supplement those texts withA Natural History of Latin by Tore Janson andUnderstanding Language by Donald Fairbairn.
I've always thought of "Latin is to French as Greek is to German" in terms of exceptions and variant forms. · 38 minutes ago
Both books are now on my wishlist at Amazon. I'll pick them up with my next order.
When you say "some Latin", do you mean that I should study enough to have an understanding of the foundation of the language? Enough to understand the language's rules and systems?
I'll have to find your posts on the subject. Thanks!
Dec '10
Re: A Question of Language
Justine Olawsky: So, my recommendation for those "living" languages is to find a native speaker and wrangle them into a friendship, and then find a child and teach him or her all that you know. :-)
This is a cool website for short and sassy language lessons: www.babbel.com I like it for grammar reviews. You can try it for free and sign up if you find it useful. · 18 minutes ago
I actually do have a lovely friend who hails from France, and I love listening to her speak. Even her English has a wonderful French accent that is quite pleasing to the ears. It's a very beautiful language. She would likely enjoy helping me learn.
Rosetta Stone offers online live sessions where you can converse with someone fluent in whatever language you're learning. Does anyone have experience with this?
I find that I like to have a certain structure whenever I begin something like this. Perhaps Rosetta would be helpful in this regard. Also, the price may be helpful in its own way, giving me some "skin in the game", so to speak.
Feb '12
Re: A Question of Language
Britanicus
When you say "some Latin", do you mean that I should study enough to have an understanding of the foundation of the language? Enough to understand the language's rules and systems?
I'll have to find your posts on the subject. Thanks! · 4 minutes ago
Whether you're only mildly curious or serious about learning Latin, Wheelock's Latin is a fantastic place to start. Its forty lessons will give you a solid grounding in the important points of grammar, a good working vocabulary, and some exposure to original texts. Once you've worked through it, you can translate most anything so long as you have a decent Latin dictionary for any new vocab. It's also one of the cheapest college textbooks I ever had, at only ~$35.
Dec '12
Re: A Question of Language
As one who's had occasion to study, or otherwise become passingly familiar with, a number of languages--English, French, Russian, German, Mexican, a smattering of Italian and Arabic (even Attic Greek)--I suggest Mandarin or Cantonese.
The reach of languages really gives me a better understanding of the cultures that use those languages, the mindsets of the people involved. The idioms and their English "translations" give a close insight into how they think and what's important to them.
The PRC currently is in a race between its power grab in the Pacific and beyond and its impending demographic implosion. If they win their race, those two languages will be major players on the world stage.
It'll be useful to clearly understand how the government of the PRC thinks. And learning them will be a serious exercise in listening and in personal discipline. Along with English, these are two extremely difficult languages to learn.
Eric Hines
Sep '10
Re: A Question of Language
Sorry, no. The goal is to think in the target language, not to translate. CS Lewis describes the joy of thinking in Greek in his autobiography Surprised by Joy. I've used Wheelock as well as Collins for ecclesiastical Latin and its painful. The 19th century is when the grammar-translation method became dogma and its responsible for a lot of the horror stories most people think of when they revisit their experiences learning the language.
Using a combination of natural language acquisition -- very similar to how modern languages are taught -- combined with some more classic forms drills will allow you to have both implicit and explicit knowledge of the language.
Lingua Latina A College Companion by Jeanne Marie Neumann is esssential for those self studying and for additional motivation I strongly urge Climbing Parnassus - A New Apologia for Greek and Latin by Tracey Lee Simmons with Foreword by William F. Buckley, Jr. and back cover blurbs by Victor Davis Hanson and Richard Brookhiser.
Sep '10
Re: A Question of Language
Graduate study in any of the European romance languages usually requires study of Latin. If you had a pre-existing mastery of Latin before beginning a romance language, you would be startled at how quickly you would learn it. So, your time spent learning Latin is not really wasted, even if you're after French as your target romance language.
You may even find Latin study so intriguing that you choose to forgo a modern language at all. Your choice.
Edited on February 14, 2013 at 8:58pmSep '10
Re: A Question of Language
In Familia Romana (Volume 1 of Lingua Latina) there are 35 lessons and the late Hans Orberg (who spent 30 years refining the methodology) recorded audio files that you can buy on CD. If you move them to an iPod or iPhone you can set them on auto repeat and listen to them while stuck in traffic.
Dec '10
Re: A Question of Language
I thought about Mandarin or Cantonese. As you say, there would be many benefits, practical and otherwise, in choosing either. However, I must admit that I'm a bit intimidated about the learning curve. At least with Greek/Latin I would have a familiar--if ancient--foundation from which to build on. Cantonese or Mandarin, as with many other languages, would be a completely undertaking.
Although, it may be more rewarding because of the difficulty. From my very limited understanding, there are some subtleties and expressions that simply can not be translated out of Mandarin or Cantonese. It would be fascinating to learn.
My heart lies in the West, however, and my goal is an enrichment of my understanding and appreciation of my civilization. At a later time, I would love to delve into the East.
Dec '10
Re: A Question of Language
Pseudodionysius
Sorry, no. The goal is to think in the target language, not to translate. CS Lewis describes the joy of thinking in Greek in his autobiographySurprised by Joy. I've usedWheelockas well asCollinsfor ecclesiastical Latin and its painful.
Yes! This is precisely it. You've articulated it far clearer than I could. Thank you. I want to be able to think in a different language.
Dec '12
Re: A Question of Language
In that case, I agree with many of the others--Latin is the way to go. It underlies our languages of science and of law. Also, Roman culture lies at the heart of much that is the West.
To this, though, I would add Attic Greek (and there's nothing like chanting the Aeneid in its original--it's how the poem was originally performed, and its rhythms are quite musical). Also, what I said about Latin and the Romans applies nearly as much to the Greeks.
Eric Hines
Dec '10
Re: A Question of Language
Pseudodionysius
Lingua Latina A College Companionby Jeanne Marie Neumann is esssential for those self studying and for additional motivation I strongly urge Climbing Parnassus - A New Apologia for Greek and Latin by Tracey Lee Simmons with Foreword by William F. Buckley, Jr. and back cover blurbs by Victor Davis Hanson and Richard Brookhiser. · 12 minutes ago
Well, if it's good enough for William F. Buckley, Jr. and Victor Davis Hanson... then it's good enough for me. Also added to Amazon.
Quite possible. At the least, like you say, I'll be better equipped to learn other Latin-based languages after.
Dec '10
Re: A Question of Language
Impressive. Would you recommend this over something like Rosetta Stone?
Sep '10
Re: A Question of Language
If you learn to enjoy your language study, it will become a permanent acquisition. If, instead, it becomes an eat your spinach endeavor, you'll eventually learn to hate it and lose what should be a life long pleasure, and one of the few permanent things that the state can never take away from you.
Sep '10
Re: A Question of Language
Amy Schley
Britanicus
When you say "some Latin", do you mean that I should study enough to have an understanding of the foundation of the language? Enough to understand the language's rules and systems?
I'll have to find your posts on the subject. Thanks! · 4 minutes ago
Whether you're only mildly curious or serious about learning Latin, Wheelock's Latin is a fantastic place to start.... It's also one of the cheapest college textbooks I ever had, at only ~$35. · 37 minutes ago
By the way, I hope my disagreement didn't come across as harsh in tone. I don't object to anyone looking at both, but I think a fair comparison between the two makes the choice clear.
Sep '10
Re: A Question of Language
Britanicus
Impressive. Would you recommend this over something like Rosetta Stone? · 5 minutes ago
For Latin, most definitely. The amount of time and effort that went into Lingua Latina is astonishing and its product of basically one man's devotion to language instruction. Pullins Publishing has an online learning facility available that you can sign up for (its around the same price as one year of Ricochet I believe).
I don't think you can really lose. The half life of your Latin study will be very long.
Sep '10
Re: A Question of Language
By the way, when the Catechism of the Catholic Church was redone, knowledge of Latin had slipped so far within the curia that they had to resort to French as the working draft language.
Anyone who's worked on programming languages can imagine the difficulty involved when you work in a modern language, then work backwards to get your Latin source code then move forward again into English, German, Danish, etc etc.