A Note on the Tea Party and the Tottenham Riots
In the current issue of City Journal, Theodore Dalrymple:
In Britain, government spending is now so high, accounting fo more than half of the economy, that it is increasingly difficult to distinguish the private sector from the public. Many supposedly private companies are as dependent on government largesse as welfare recipients are, and much of the money with which the government pays them is borrowed....
Deficits are like smoking: difficult to give up. They can be cut only at the cost of genuine hardship, for many people will have become dependent upon them for their livelihood. Hence withdrawal symptoms are likely to be severe; and hardship is always politically hazardous to inflict, even when it is a necessary corrective to previous excess. This is what Britain faces.
The proximate cause of the rioting over the last several days in the London district of Tottenham the death of a local man at the hands of police in circumstances that remain unclear, but the wider background--the government's effort to control spending--appears pertinent. "Frustration in this impoverished neighborhood, as with many others in Britain," the New York Times informs us, "has mounted as the government's austerity budget has forced deep cuts in services and aid."
Note the use of "impoverished" in that sentence. The rioters all appear well-fed and well-clothed. They live in a district filled with foot and automobile traffic, in which busses and the subway provide cheap transportation to the rest of London, and in which people obviously have enough money to support a network of retail establishments that bespeak first-world wealth, not third-world poverty. The government has begun the necessary work of unwinding public indebtedness--and, as people with a standard of living much of the world would envy feel justified in taking to the streets, reporters in the mainstream media feel free to ignore the evidence of their eyes, describing the rioters as "impoverished."
Which brings me to the tea party.
Getting control over the federal budget will prove hard, dirty, difficult work. I'm not predicting riots. But things have already gotten tense in state capitals--think of the demonstrations in Madison--and as normally dispassionate a columnist as Joe Nocera has already referred to the tea party as "terrorists." And all this at the mere prospect of spending cuts.
Some in the tea party--for that matter, quite a few people right here at Ricochet--demonstrated exasperated impatience when the Republicans in the House of Representatives failed to use the debt ceiling debate to effect deep cuts in federal spending. But we had won only one election and one house of Congress. That wasn't enough--it just wasn't. As Gov. Mitch Daniels put it not long ago, "Big changes require big majorities." I'd go so far as to argue that cutting spending last month would have damaged the tea party's standing, causing a reaction among Democrats and the press that would have set back the entire effort.
Patience--patience and realism. Next year, the tea party must carry the country.
And even then, the fight will only barely have begun.
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Oct '10
Re: A Note on the Tea Party and the Tottenham Riots
Peter... as much as I respect your views, you kid yourself if you believe that moving with caution will get us anywhere. You underestimate the number of us, mysef included, who have wasted a lifetime, 50 years as a voter myself, on the expectation that a bunch of statist Republicans have the cajones necessary to do anything to slow down the march to socialism.
So far, only Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachmann have the necessary hardware to actually accomplish any meaningful progress against the Soviets, no matter what iteration they are in at the moment.
Count me out if all you have going for you is the usual quisling statist that the GOP has become.
Jun '10
Re: A Note on the Tea Party and the Tottenham Riots
It's Tea Party success that will cause riots--Wisconsin-squared--if there are riots, because it would make government smaller. Most of the Tea Partiers are saying, "just leave us alone." "Leave us alone" does not cost the government anything. The Tea Party is asking for something the government could do for free.
Dec '10
Re: A Note on the Tea Party and the Tottenham Riots
I think I am leaning Raycon's way on this. Twice the new House has had an opportunity to do something about spending, the CR battle and the debt ceiling battle, and essentially came up empty. I agree we can't overplay our hand, but it's becoming increasingly difficult to believe we aren't underplaying it.
Jul '10
Re: A Note on the Tea Party and the Tottenham Riots
"...cutting spending last month would have damaged the tea party's standing.."
Yeah, with those who feed at the public trough.
Good retort, Raycon.
Re: A Note on the Tea Party and the Tottenham Riots
Jeepers, raycon. I devoted six years of my life to serving President Reagan--and I have to defend myself against the charge that I'm a "statist quisling?"
All I'm trying to do here is make a couple of points:
1) Rolling back the federal government is by nature of the thing much, much harder than expanding it
2) To suppose that we could do so on the basis of one election, in which we captured one house of Congress, is to misunderstand the nature of our institutions
The tea party has already brought Obama's reckless expansion of the federal government to a halt and completely changed the terms of the debate. Aside from New York Times columnists Paul Krugman and Thomas Friedman, no one--no one--is talking about expanding the government still further but instead about how much and how quickly to reduce spending.
Those represent massive accomplishments. Let's take renewed confidence from them--then get to work on carrying the country next year.
Edited on August 8, 2011 at 1:35amApr '11
Re: A Note on the Tea Party and the Tottenham Riots
What we are witnessing is the battle between 2 competing ideologies - welfare statism vs small gov't capitalism. The statists can not win in a pure sense. If the electorate decide that they want to keep the status quo, the system will collapse and God help us all which will be a hollow victory for them indeed. Europe has buried their collective heads in the post-war Ponzi induced social welfare system. Demographics are playing a cruel joke but the political class there is in so deep that they are unwilling to see the reality of where their system has brought them. Like the USSR in the 80's, they play at small compromises not realizing that opening that door even a bit, will lead to the end. Unfortunately, it looks like there may be more casualties in the death throws of this system then there was when the Berlin Wall came tumbling down. Thank God the US is looking to change coarse with a gov't at 24% of GDP and not 50%. Our landing, while not smooth, should be far less traumatic than the UK/EU crash.
Dec '10
Re: A Note on the Tea Party and the Tottenham Riots
Indeed.
Jun '10
Re: A Note on the Tea Party and the Tottenham Riots
A welfare state removes most of the basic self-respect that an independent citizen would use to avoid joining violent mobs in the first place. And they're also made up of people who have few ideas of their own--society's dependent types--who therefore quickly run out of any ideas beyond mob violence. Violence shows a real lack of imagination.
May '10
Re: A Note on the Tea Party and the Tottenham Riots
As long as boomers come out against entitlement reform, change will be very difficult. Not only because they have much invested in propping up Medicare and Social Security, but because they are a large voting block. Rioting and demonstrations are the only recourse, if people that share your principles can't get and can't stay elected. "Patience" should be the Republicans' answer to Obama's "hope and change." And let's not forget that change happens at a glacial pace, and it was the intention of the framers that government behave this way. I believe John alluded to this in the last Law Talk podcast. It took decades to put us in this mess and will take decades to undo it. Many of our government boondoggles are the result of haste and myopia. Let's not repeat the mistakes of the past by demanding things our way, right now, or else.
Aug '11
Re: A Note on the Tea Party and the Tottenham Riots
New member here. I've been listening to the original Podcast since this site got off the ground. I actually decided to sign up finally after reading raycon's post.
While I sympathize with his frustration, I do not sympathize with his sentiments. The trouble with the tea party is precisely because the all-or-nothing demands suffer from two serious defects. Peter pointed out the first; fiscal conservatives simply lack the political leverage to get more than what they got with the Boehner plan. To protest this fact is howling at the moon.
Second, and more important going forward, is the fact that all-or-nothing discourse is easily exploited. It simply denotes the speakers as an extremist, allowing those who oppose him to act as if their position is the center. The more tea party rhetoric becomes all-or-nothing, the less legitimacy it will have in public discourse. Is it fair for a progressive (who refuses to cut entitlements the nation cannot afford) to claim the center? No? Then don't let them. Make the case plain and allow for incremental changes until 2012 hopefully produces real change.
Edited on August 8, 2011 at 1:54amJun '10
Re: A Note on the Tea Party and the Tottenham Riots
Jimmy Carter: "...cutting spending last month would have damaged the tea party's standing.."
Yeah, with those who feed at the public trough.
Allow me to coin a new term: "first-of-the-monthers." It's the day that every cab in our fleet is on the street. We're taking them to casinos and bars for a tax funded night on the town. In the morning they're broke and we don't hear from them again for another month. This is the abuse we taxpayers get for our generosity. Color me a member of the radical middle-class. Now, how funny is that?
Jan '11
Re: A Note on the Tea Party and the Tottenham Riots
These are two separate issues.
I'm all for patience ... so long as the politicians we eventually elect do what we actually ask them to do. If we get a majority in the senate of 58, then we have to worry about Susan Collins, Olympia Snowe, Scott Brown, Lindsay Graham, and then John McCain ... trying to appeal to the Democrats and be lauded for their bipartisanship.
May '10
Re: A Note on the Tea Party and the Tottenham Riots
We have Rob the "RINO Squish" and Peter the "Quisling Statist."
Sounds like a combo at Cafe Ricochet "I'll have the Quisling Statist with a large RINO Squish."
You can have some fun with that on the next Podcast.
Re: A Note on the Tea Party and the Tottenham Riots
Owl of Minerva: New member here. I've been listening to the original Podcast since this site got off the ground. I actually decided to sign up finally after reading raycon's post.
While I sympathize with his frustration, I do not sympathize with his sentiments. The trouble with the tea party is precisely because the all-or-nothing demands suffer from two serious defects. Peter pointed out the first; fiscal conservatives simply lack the political leverage to get more than what they got with the Boehner plan. To protest this fact is howling at the moon.Edited on Aug 07 at 04:54 pm
Welcome to Ricochet! (And I'd have said that even if you'd disagreed with me. I think.)
Jun '10
Re: A Note on the Tea Party and the Tottenham Riots
Are we forgetting that these imprudent and impatient "Tea Partiers" were elected to do exactly what they did...try their darndest to cut spending? They didn't sweep into office and give the Republicans the House because they promised patience. So when we hear from the estute and the elite that these folks need to calm down and play the game, kind of like the Republicans have been doing for 60 years, my hind side starts to itch. If not for these newbies we wouldn't even be talking about the size of government. The debt ceiling would have been raised with perfunctory objections and we would just continue our slide to oblivion. The Tea Party folks didn't create this mess. The staid and "patient" old guard created it and I guarantee you they will not be the ones to get us out of it, I don't care what political gamesmanship you want to play. Btw, what happened after all the hand wringing about the imperative of raising the debt ceiling or we would lose our AAA rating? Looks like that didn't matter as much as cutting spending, did it?
Edited on August 8, 2011 at 2:45amJun '10
Re: A Note on the Tea Party and the Tottenham Riots
Peter: If I could change the subject slightly, your post reminds me of something I've meant to say but haven't: get Theodore Dalrymple (real name: Anthony Daniels) on Uncommon Knowledge. He is one of the clearest thinkers on our side of the issues.
Also, while I too would like to solve the whole debacle in Washington in one fell swoop, I agree with you that we won't do it in a day. 2012 is critical because Gov. Daniels is right in saying that big changes require real power.
I say we move as fast and do as much as can be done within the limits of our power. But the Right must show real discipline. This is not the time for Pyrrhic victories: we need real ones.
Jun '10
Re: A Note on the Tea Party and the Tottenham Riots
Check it out. Owl of Minerva has the single best bio on Ricochet. Welcome.
Jan '11
Re: A Note on the Tea Party and the Tottenham Riots
The frustration with the pace of change must also be veiwed within the context of when the Republicans had the White House & Congress - what did we get? More spending and debt. I'm still not certain that the GOP establishment got the message. References of Ronald Reagan and 'limited government' from the leadership just aren't going to cut it any more. We need to see some real progress. These 'out-year' cuts and reductions in the rate of growth are non-starters.
That first 'First Rule of Holes is to Stop Digging' - well this big debt ceiling deal is basically that the word has come down to stop digging - in ten years. Not good enough.
Re: A Note on the Tea Party and the Tottenham Riots
tabula rasa:
I say we move as fast and do as much as can be done within the limits of our power. But the Right must show real discipline. This is not the time for Pyrrhic victories: we need real ones. · Aug 7 at 5:41pm
I must have put it badly, because some of my best Ricochet pals are obviously cross with me. But, well, exactly.
Aug '10
Re: A Note on the Tea Party and the Tottenham Riots
Nick Stuart: We have Rob the "RINO Squish" and Peter the "Quisling Statist."
Sounds like a combo at Cafe Ricochet "I'll have the Quisling Statist with a large RINO Squish."
You can have some fun with that on the next Podcast. · Aug 7 at 4:55pm
What do put on a Quisling Statist Platter?
Smoked salmon, sauerkraut, and some cubes of goverment cheese?