A Bubble in the Higher Education Market, Part Three
On Monday, The Wall Street Journal reported that “state universities have become the favorite of companies recruiting new hires because their big student populations and focus on teaching practical skills gives the companies more bang for their recruiting buck.” The article, which seems to be outside the paywall, is interesting. Even more interesting is the fact that the only university listed by recruiters from corporations such as GE to be found in the Ivy League is Cornell University – which is half-private, half-public.
Here is the list of the top twenty-five schools identified by recruiters in order of preference: Penn State, Texas A&M, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, Purdue, Arizona State, University of Michigan, George Institute of Technology, University of Maryland in College Park, University of Florida in Gainesville, Carnegie Mellon, Brigham Young, Ohio State, Virginia Polytechnic, Cornell, the University of California at Berkeley, the University of Wisconsin at Madison, UCLA, Texas Tech, North Carolina state, the University of Virginia, Rutgers, Notre Dame, MIT, the University of Southern California, Washington State, and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
The piece also lists in-state and out-of-state tuition, and the gap is enormous. At Berkeley, for example, in-state tuition is $12,462; out-of-state tuition is $35,341. In most cases, the latter is double the former. In some, as in the case of Berkeley, out-of-state tuition is very nearly three-times what in-state tuition is.
To some degree, I suspect, recruiter preference is skewed by the sheer size of the schools and the presence of engineering schools and business schools. But, even if this is true, the results are striking.
Let me say that I am a bit surprised. Over the years, I have learned from transfer students that it is perfectly possible to get through the big state universities without learning anything at all. I remember the day when one of the leading players on the Washington Redskins announced that he was learning how to read. He was a graduate of Oklahoma State University. Years ago, when I lived in Chapel Hill, I was told that there was a major at UNC called “Playground Management.” Whatever one might want to say about Stanford, the University of Chicago, Columbia, Princeton, and Yale, one could not say that.
Nonetheless, the data collected by The Wall Street Journal gives one pause. Could it be the case that virtually no one from our elite schools goes on to work in business? Are these schools almost exclusively preparing their students for post-graduate studies – in, say, law, medicine, the academy – and for work with NGOs and in the government? I would love to know more.
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Jul '10
Re: A Bubble in the Higher Education Market, Part Three
Interesting to see a lot of the top engineering programs in that list.
I would say that Georgia Tech., MIT, Carnegie Mellon, Berkeley, USC, UVa, UNC, and (grudgingly) Michigan are elite schools. At least they think so.
May '10
Re: A Bubble in the Higher Education Market, Part Three
I think its all about size. If you surveyed recruiters from investment banks, law firms and consulting firms you would see the Ivies represented. But a recruiter at Wal-Mart (who is probably recruiting more than the next 10 recruiters combined) has no interest in/need for Harvard.
Jun '10
Re: A Bubble in the Higher Education Market, Part Three
Professor Rahe and Michael - I would wager, the entire list is driven only by engineering and business. If it were driven by engineering alone, one might expect to see MIT closer to the top. But, schools like the University of Illinois and Purdue have top-notch engineering programs and also fairly well known business schools. ... let's face it, companies aren't flocking to the psychology departments or sociology departments to recruit their top students...
It is very true that one can slip by at big universities without learning much. But, the benefit of big universities (at least in theory) is that one can learn as much as one wants in a multitude of disciplines. Plus, at big universities you have access to the top researchers in your field esp. in fields like chemistry, biology, neuroscience, and (sigh) even the social sciences.
While you won't get as good of an education in the humanities at Purdue and Maryland as you would at Hillsdale or the University of Dallas, you certainly could if you wanted to - if you really sought it out. The problem is college freshman don't yet have the wisdom to know they should want to.
Re: A Bubble in the Higher Education Market, Part Three
Samwise Gamgee:
While you won't get as good of an education in the humanities at Purdue and Maryland as you would at Hillsdale or the University of Dallas, you certainly could if you wanted to - if you really sought it out. The problem is college freshman don't yet have the wisdom to know they should want to. · Sep 14 at 6:41am
I think that this is pretty much true. A motivated and canny 18-year-old could negotiate the system and get a first-class education at almost any large university, and an unmotivated or undirected 18-year-old could get a degree without getting an education of any sort.
Jul '10
Re: A Bubble in the Higher Education Market, Part Three
Just to add to your comments Sam. Most engineering departments, even at big institutions, are rigorous in a way that other departments are not. That's one of the reasons why I hold a joint appointment in Chemical Engineering. A lot of the engineering students are better prepared to handle the math that a graduate education requires, are used to being tested thoroughly, can think outside the realm of what has been taught to them, and want to make money. In the undergraduate curriculum for biologists and chemists, much of that has been dumbed down to accommodate marginal students and boost credit-hours for the departments.
Jun '10
Re: A Bubble in the Higher Education Market, Part Three
Paul A. Rahe
Samwise Gamgee:
While you won't get as good of an education in the humanities at Purdue and Maryland as you would at Hillsdale or the University of Dallas, you certainly could if you wanted to - if you really sought it out. The problem is college freshman don't yet have the wisdom to know they should want to. · Sep 14 at 6:41am
I think that this is pretty much true. A motivated and canny 18-year-old could negotiate the system and get a first-class education at almost any large university, and an unmotivated or undirected 18-year-old could get a degree without getting an education of any sort. · Sep 14 at 7:00am
That's maybe part of demonstrating special skills. If you can maneuver through the public university system, skimming off the cream of the curriculum, then you obviously understand what you want, and what you're doing there.
Jun '10
Re: A Bubble in the Higher Education Market, Part Three
Another interesting aspect of this conversation is the criteria which programs are judged by and the consequences of those criteria. As state universities become more enamored with graduating more of their students and educating more students in general, admission standards and class difficulty plummet. As outside influences (government funding mainly) impose standards (like in the housing market) the natural market forces are removed and internal governance of the university is compromised, leading to poorer quality education. Items such as 'diversity' standards for example compromise institutions and their ability to select top tier students when other criteria are substituted.
My main point is that several outside forces manipulate the financial market (even in the market of academia) and arbitrarily have compromised university standards of admissions and class rigor.
May '10
Re: A Bubble in the Higher Education Market, Part Three
Texas A&M is renowned for its alumni network. Everyone in Texas knows that if you have an A&M ring, it will open doors. It's a decent school, but I suspect its popularity among recruiters has less to do with quality of education than with the "good ol' boy" network.
The University of Alabama and other major public universities in the South are also this way. Good alumni networks are encouraged by their strong celebration of tradition. You can't attend college in Tuscaloosa or College Station without being swamped in campus traditions. Like with military boot camp, the benefit of uniformity is a feeling of family. People take care of family.
Jun '10
Re: A Bubble in the Higher Education Market, Part Three
My oldest son graduated in 2004 from Brigham Young's Master of Accounting program (which is highly regarded nationwide). Total tuition for five years' study was less than $25,000. He had job offers from three of the national accounting firms and could have gone virtually anywhere in the country. BYU, like Texas A&M, has a strong good old boy network as well.
Do big firms care if you went to an expensive school to obtain an accounting degree? Apparently not. They care about two things: whether you can do the work and whether you have a strong work ethic.
Other disciplines, like law, are undoubtedly different, but I predict we'll see the Ivy League brand diminish over time.