The Solution To Problems

People are going to live the way they’re going to live unless you use force to stop them.   And by force, I mean physical force, men with guns.

You can ban plural marriage, but people will still have them.  They just don’t register them.

You can ban drugs, but people will still do them.  Ask around, you can still get drugs.

You can ban gay marriage, but committed gay couples are still going to call themselves married and have weddings and raise children.

You can ban abortions, but people…

  1. 10 cents

    Are trying to say all the rules and laws made up this moment were totally useless with no benefit?

    If you are trying to say you cannot stop all the people with a law, you are right. But I think many people don’t do things because there is a law. Awhile back in Japan they cracked down on illegal parking. Since they made it more strict with more “parking cops”,  there is a whole lot less people willing to pay the over $150 dollar fine.  Laws are not made to perfect people but to help imperfect people make better choices by setting a cost to benefit equation that benefits society. Its kind of like the Code of Conduct.

  2. Cornelius Julius Sebastian

    You can make murder illegal, but people will still find a way to commit homicide….

  3. Fred Cole
    10 cents: Are trying to say all the rules and laws made up this moment were totally useless with no benefit?

    [snip]

    Laws are not made to perfect people but to help imperfect people make better choices by setting a cost to benefit equation that benefits society. Its kind of like the Code of Conduct. · 9 minutes ago

    I thought the law existed to keep people from clubbing eachother and taking their [stuff].

    I didn’t realize it was a giant self help system.

  4. Fred Cole
    Cornelius Julius Sebastian: You can make murder illegal, but people will still find a way to commit homicide…. · 2 minutes ago

    People are going to do what they’re going to do.

  5. Severely Ltd.
    Fred Cole: If you have a problem with something, abortion, drug use, idleness, people wearing their pants too low so you can see the tops of their underwear, dancing, swearing, gambling, “fornication,” unmarried cohabitation, …

    *I’ll add a caveat to that: This will not work in those limited few cases where what someone is doing involves using force on another person.  Persuading a bank robber is less likely to work.  Force needs to be met with force.  But using force should only be in response to force.

    I don’t want to divert this into a debate on abortion, I just want to point out that it doesn’t belong in the list in the top sentence. Abortion is using force to kill the defenseless.

    That’s all.

  6. Cornelius Julius Sebastian
    Fred Cole

    Cornelius Julius Sebastian: You can make murder illegal, but people will still find a way to commit homicide…. · 2 minutes ago

    People are going to do what they’re going to do. · 5 minutes ago

    So are you advocating that laws against murder be taken off the books? 

  7. Bill Nelson

    This is not correct. In a democratic society, the vast majority of people will know that the rules of society and the laws of the state exist to allow for productive association of individuals.

    The core of Tocqueville’s “Democracy in America” is about how the American democratic society was able to cooperate in a fashion that the rules of society and the laws of the state were minimized such that the members of society cooperated, mostly, to make society work.

    Laws do not make a society. There is a sense of voluntary association that allows for the members of a free society to function productively. When the laws of the state become coercive that the members no longer “freely” associate, and the state, and its society, begin to break down.

  8. Fred Cole
    Cornelius Julius Sebastian

    Fred Cole

    Cornelius Julius Sebastian: You can make murder illegal, but people will still find a way to commit homicide…. · 2 minutes ago

    People are going to do what they’re going to do. · 5 minutes ago

    So are you advocating that laws against murder be taken off the books?  · 0 minutes ago

    Nope.

  9. 10 cents

    It is not self help. Man, you need a dictionary. Here’s some non-self help for you. :-)

    the action or process of bettering oneself or overcoming one’s problems without the aid of others especially : the coping with one’s personal or emotional problems without professional help Merriam-Webster, I. (2003). Merriam-Webster’s collegiate dictionary. (Eleventh ed.). Springfield, MA: Merriam-Webster, Inc.
    Fred Cole

    10 cents: Are trying to say all the rules and laws made up this moment were totally useless with no benefit?

    [snip]

    Laws are not made to perfect people but to help imperfect people make better choices by setting a cost to benefit equation that benefits society. Its kind of like the Code of Conduct. · 9 minutes ago

    I thought the law existed to keep people from clubbing eachother and taking their [stuff].

    I didn’t realize it was a giant self help system. · 9 minutes ago

    Edited 7 minutes ago

  10. Cornelius Julius Sebastian
    Fred Cole

    Cornelius Julius Sebastian

    Fred Cole

    Cornelius Julius Sebastian: You can make murder illegal, but people will still find a way to commit homicide…. · 2 minutes ago

    People are going to do what they’re going to do. · 5 minutes ago

    So are you advocating that laws against murder be taken off the books?  · 0 minutes ago

    Nope. · 7 minutes ago

    Grand, because for we opposed to abortion, it is the same thing.

  11. Fred Cole
    Cornelius Julius Sebastian

    Fred Cole

    Cornelius Julius Sebastian

    Fred Cole

    Cornelius Julius Sebastian: You can make murder illegal, but people will still find a way to commit homicide…. · 2 minutes ago

    People are going to do what they’re going to do. · 5 minutes ago

    So are you advocating that laws against murder be taken off the books?  · 0 minutes ago

    Nope. · 7 minutes ago

    Grand, because for we opposed to abortion, it is the same thing. · 3 minutes ago

    Yeah.  I get that.

    Banning it isn’t the solution though.

  12. Cornelius Julius Sebastian
    Fred Cole

    Cornelius Julius Sebastian

    Fred Cole

    Cornelius Julius Sebastian

    Fred Cole

    Cornelius Julius Sebastian: You can make murder illegal, but people will still find a way to commit homicide…. · 2 minutes ago

    People are going to do what they’re going to do. · 5 minutes ago

    So are you advocating that laws against murder be taken off the books?  · 0 minutes ago

    Nope. · 7 minutes ago

    Grand, because for we opposed to abortion, it is the same thing. · 3 minutes ago

    Yeah.  I get that.

    Banning it isn’t the solution though. · 0 minutes ago

    Agree to disagree.  We’ve been down this goat rope before.

  13. civil westman

    This is a fair practical approximation of the result of a libertarian political system. Non aggression. It also reveals several essential flaws of statist philosophy.

    Statists believe that-

    -they are empowered to control society by their own superior knowledge (hubris)

    -all social ‘problems’ (defined by them) are amenable to legal amelioration.

    -law must apply perfectly, down to the last individual

    -there are no unintended consequences of law (nemesis)

    -coercion can create real community

    Such utopians have been at it for quite some time. Has anyone tabulated the body count? Reminds me of the famous quote from the Vietnam war. “We had to destroy the village in order to save it.” This statement encapsulates the final common pathway of all utopian tyrannies.

  14. Fred Cole
    Cornelius Julius Sebastian

    Agree to disagree.  We’ve been down this goat rope before. ·

    You can ban it, it just means that it’ll go underground.

    If your goal is reducing the number of abortions, then turning people who want them into criminals means they’ll hide it.  If they’re more open about it, then you can talk to them and persuade them not to do it.

    Additionally, not everyone shares your evaluation that a fetus is a person with rights.  If I club you over the head, person on person, no ambiguity.  Abortion is not ambiguous to you, but it is to other people.  So they’ll resist your attempts at prohibition, and prohibition makes them into martyrs.

    And you end up with the crapstorm we have now.

    However, if the pro-life movement put all the energy and skill they put into promotion prohibition into persuasion instead of advocating coercion, you could convince people.

    People are going to do what they’re going to do.  A law isn’t going to stop them.  If you don’t want them to do something, you need to remove from them the desire to do the thing.

  15. Fred Cole
    civil westman: 

    Such utopians have been at it for quite some time. Has anyone tabulated the body count? Reminds me of the famous quote from the Vietnam war. “We had to destroy the village in order to save it.” This statement encapsulates the final common pathway of all utopian tyrannies. · 23 minutes ago

    Well said.

  16. Casey
     

    You can ban it, it just means that it’ll go underground.

    People are going to do what they’re going to do.  A law isn’t going to stop them.  If you don’t want them to do something, you need to remove from them the desire to do the thing. · 1 minute ago

    Is it so clearly tit for tat?  Are there a permanent levels of activity?  Cannot a law dissuade?

  17. Lord Humungus

    What if the purpose of a law is not to eliminate a thing from being done, but to reduce the frequency of a thing from being done?

  18. 10 cents

    Fred,

    Do you understand the term “law abiding”?  Some people actually follow rules. They do not go underground.  Are you a law unto yourself? Is this where this comes from?

  19. Fred Cole
    Casey

       

    Is it so clearly tit for tat?  Are there a permanent levels of activity?  Cannot a law dissuade? · 7 minutes ago

    No.  Not if you’re talking about a government law.

    Definition of DISSUADE
    1a : to advise (a person) against somethingb archaic : to advise against (an action)

    2: to turn from something by persuasion <unable to dissuadehim from going>

    A prohibitive law backed by force isn’t advising them or persuading.

    Or, as Ayn Rand put it

    Do not open your mouth to tell me that your mind has convinced you of your right to force my mind. Force and mind are opposites; morality ends where a gun begins.

    Or, as Leonard Peikoff put it

    Force is the antonym and negation of thought. Understanding is not produced by a punch in the face; intellectual clarity does not flow from the muzzle of a gun; the weighing of evidence is not mediated by spasms of terror. The mind is a cognitive faculty; it cannot achieve knowledge or conviction apart from or against its perception of reality; it cannot be forced.

  20. Barkha Herman

    Laws do change behavior, but not usually  how discussed on this site.

    So, according to Walter Williams, unwed pregnancies rose after the Government started paying unwed mothers.

    Were there unwed mothers before?  Yes.  However, the increase in number correlates to the funding.  Now, this only works for so long.  E.g. birth rates are low in Sweden despite the fact that mothers are paid up to two years in order to encourage child birth.

    I know many Americans who do not habitually smoke pot but will try it when in Amsterdam. 

    Policies can be used to “adjust” the behavior of the population but not change it completely.

    Having said that, I am not a proponent of legislating morality.  That should come from parents, family, friends, churches, etc…

    Laws should be there to protect rights – not to promote behavior.

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