The Veneration, or Not, of the Saints

 

The topic of veneration is a bit of a challenge for me, as the first association I have with the word is the veneration of saints. I’m Lutheran though, and Lutherans don’t venerate saints; we’re kinda famous for not doing so.  If you’ll indulge a flippant over-simplification, we don’t think God is an officious bureaucrat who requires all the relevant department heads to sign off on a request before fulfilling it or a lazy kid who won’t do his chores until his mom nags him.

That being said, we do still have a place for saints in our worship. They are for our education and edification, if not our veneration.  My Liber Hymnorum, a hymnal of Latin hymns used by the early Lutheran church, describes a year of saintly feasts, from St. Sebastian on January 20th to the Holy Innocents on December 28th, with stops for St. Gregory in March, St. Anne in July, and St. Michael and All Angels in September, as well as about a dozen others. The Brotherhood Prayer Book, a Lutheran breviary, lists dozens more notable church fathers and mothers whose feast day is a chance for honoring and remembering their extraordinary lives, including doctors of the church like John Chrysostom, Anselm of Canterbury, Bede the Venerable, and Augustine of Hippo.  (If you see a St. Martin Lutheran Church, it is recognizing Martin of Tours, not Mr. Luther.)

On these special occasions, we have special hymns and collects, e.g. the collect for the Feast of St. Peter and St. Paul includes “O God, who didst give Thine Apostles Peter and Paul grace to lay down their lives for the sake of Thy dear Son : endow us, we beseech Thee, with like constancy, that we may at all times be ready to lay down our lives.” The standard saint’s festival hymn for LCMS congregations is “By All Your Saints in Warfare,” 517-518. Yes, that’s one hymn — 28 verses over four pages. The first and third verses are always the same; the second is the one responsive to the day, whether verse 4 “Saints and Martyrs (general)” sung on All Saints’ or verse 22 “St. Mary, Mother of Our Lord” sung on my birthday.

It may not be veneration, but we Lutherans still have a place for saints.

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  1. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    danok1 (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Old Bathos (View Comment):

    I think that veneration of saints is first supposed to be about a bold affirmation that the Church is everyone who lives in the promises of Christ, including those who have passed and that we and they are part of that same single community. Second, it is second about trying by desire and emulation to attach ourselves to persons with a sanctified life.

    I picture Christ returning to the Father but dragging along hordes of flawed riffraff (that would be us) attached by love. He says, in effect, if you want me, you gotta take them too. A saint is someone who does the same thing, though on a considerably smaller scale. That is what intercession means.

    The intended use of saints as a source for preferred temporal outcomes (pain relief, lottery hits, fewer morons elected to office, etc) is inherently problematic to put it charitably. For example, a well-educated Irishwoman of my acquaintance once told me that one should pray to Saint Joseph when looking to buy a house (could be spiritually efficacious even if too outcome-oriented) but to bury a statue of St. Joseph upside down in the back yard when you are trying to sell. (Truly horrifying.)

    I understand the horror of my Protestant brethren at superstitious drivel but I fear that sometimes they are content to toss a few babies so long as the volume of bath water is sufficiently large.

    This is using Saints as minor deities. You cannot spin it any other way. It is no different than an Evangelical treating God as a vending machine. I don’t think rejecting this can be strong enough.

    There have been great men and women in history. I honor them. I am not going to pray to them like a pagan god.

    Perhaps you missed what OB wrote at the end of the passage you emphasized.

    Don’t see how that is the case. I am not for the passage outlined: It is about using Saints as minor deities.  I took him at his word he understood my horror at the “superstitious drivel”.  I am not sure what baby I am throwing out to say I am not going to pray to a Saint. 

    I sure don’t think I need to pray to St. Joseph before buying a home. 

    • #31
  2. Amy Schley Coolidge
    Amy Schley
    @AmySchley

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    I am not sure what baby I am throwing out to say I am not going to pray to a Saint. 

    I believe what was meant is that in many Protestant churches, the understandable desire to not venerate saints means avoiding any mention of saints. They end up ignored and forgotten when we ought to remember them and hold them up as examples of God’s grace. 

    December 26th is the feast of St. Steven the martyr, a poignant reminder immediately after Christmas of what being a Christian may cost us. December 28th is the feast of the Holy Innocents, the children killed by Herod after the report of the Magi. The verse for this day is what we sang at the March For Life, because Rachel has yet to cease her weeping for her slain children. 

    Remembering the Saints, tying their lives to ours, is an important part of maintain continuity with our parents in the faith. A blanket “saints are pagan and have no place in Christianity” attitude is to make oneself an orphan.

    • #32
  3. SkipSul Inactive
    SkipSul
    @skipsul

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    They are given areas over which they have power.

    Not how it works (setting aside how some people do confuse the concept, like the whole St. Joseph statue issue above).  

    But to explain why we need to back up.  In fact, I’ll let Frederica explain things (she’s quite good at it):

    Put another way, the central issue is over whether we believe these postulates about those who have died physically
    A) They are Alive in Christ, and
    B) Capable of hearing us.

    If you do not believe that a Christian, once dead, is (even if alive in Christ) able to hear us and pray for us, then of course the entire issue of saints is moot, and that’s the end of the discussion and there’s no need to go further.

    But to what I’ve quoted – “They are given areas over which they have power.”  That’s not how it works.  

    If a saint is alive in Christ, then they must retain who they are, indeed who they truly are must be freed of the mortal concerns of this life, and freed of sin.  They are who they are best able to be.  Each person is unique, with their own interests, their own talents, their own skills, their own unique gifts – we know this to be true in this mortal life already, why should it be not moreso once free of our sins?

    Thus, if you believe postulates A and B to be true, then it must also follow that these individuals, if able to hear us, and in retention of what made them unique as personalities, must therefore still have their own areas of interest and care.  This is emphatically not to say that they are assigned, like some sort of lesser deity, rule over some aspect of life, nor is it to say that they can be commanded or summoned, especially by any special invocation of a statue or an icon, but that they’re rather like a friend or relative who is able to sympathize over some plight of yours, having been through it themselves or having a special knowledge of it.

    • #33
  4. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Amy Schley (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    I am not sure what baby I am throwing out to say I am not going to pray to a Saint.

    I believe what was meant is that in many Protestant churches, the understandable desire to not venerate saints means avoiding any mention of saints. They end up ignored and forgotten when we ought to remember them and hold them up as examples of God’s grace.

    December 26th is the feast of St. Steven the martyr, a poignant reminder immediately after Christmas of what being a Christian may cost us. December 28th is the feast of the Holy Innocents, the children killed by Herod after the report of the Magi. The verse for this day is what we sang at the March For Life, because Rachel has yet to cease her weeping for her slain children.

    Remembering the Saints, tying their lives to ours, is an important part of maintain continuity with our parents in the faith. A blanket “saints are pagan and have no place in Christianity” attitude is to make oneself an orphan.

    I did not take that stance. And my Church does mention Saints. 

    But let’s be honest, the Catholic and Orthodox Churches don’t even have the same ones. And if UMC decided to create a Saint, would either of them agree to it? I doubt it. That whole “True Church” thing. 

     

    • #34
  5. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    They are given areas over which they have power.

    Not how it works (setting aside how some people do confuse the concept, like the whole St. Joseph statue issue above).

    But to explain why we need to back up. In fact, I’ll let Frederica explain things (she’s quite good at it):

    Put another way, the central issue is over whether we believe these postulates about those who have died physically
    A) They are Alive in Christ, and
    B) Capable of hearing us.

    If you do not believe that a Christian, once dead, is (even if alive in Christ) able to hear us and pray for us, then of course the entire issue of saints is moot, and that’s the end of the discussion and there’s no need to go further.

    But to what I’ve quoted – “They are given areas over which they have power.” That’s not how it works.

    If a saint is alive in Christ, then they must retain who they are, indeed who they truly are must be freed of the mortal concerns of this life, and freed of sin. They are who they are best able to be. Each person is unique, with their own interests, their own talents, their own skills, their own unique gifts – we know this to be true in this mortal life already, why should it be not moreso once free of our sins?

    Thus, if you believe postulates A and B to be true, then it must also follow that these individuals, if able to hear us, and in retention of what made them unique as personalities, must therefore still have their own areas of interest and care. This is emphatically not to say that they are assigned, like some sort of lesser deity, rule over some aspect of life, nor is it to say that they can be commanded or summoned, especially by any special invocation of a statue or an icon, but that they’re rather like a friend or relative who is able to sympathize over some plight of yours, having been through it themselves or having a special knowledge of it.

    Regardless of how you say it and what you believe, it is quite clear that to many Catholics they are exactly that, and presented to me as such. That is not a bug, it is a feature of the system of Saints. Indeed, Saints were pasted on top of existing pagan gods as Christianity rolled forward. It was an easy step for Christian congregations rooted in paganism to replace the customs of local cults with the worship of dead martyrs. 

    Could we spend more time on stories of people in the world? Sure, I think we need to look at all Christian Stories like that more. I don’t think Saints deserve the elevation they get. I don’t even believe they all existed. 

    • #35
  6. Michael Collins Member
    Michael Collins
    @MichaelCollins

    Amy Schley: They are for our education and edification, if not our veneration. My Liber Hymnorum, a hymnal of Latin hymns used by the early Lutheran church, describes a year of saintly feasts, from St. Sebastian on January 20th to the Holy Innocents on December 28th, with stops for St. Gregory in March, St. Anne in July, and St. Michael and All Angels in September, as well as about a dozen others. The Brotherhood Prayer Book, a Lutheran breviary, lists dozens more notable church fathers and mothers whose feast day is a chance for honoring and remembering their extraordinary lives, including doctors of the church like John Chrysostom, Anselm of Canterbury, Bede the Venerable, and Augustine of Hippo. (If you see a St. Martin Lutheran Church, it is recognizing Martin of Tours, not Mr. Luther.

    My Websters  II New College Dictionary defines ‘venerate’ as “To regard with respect, reverence or deference.”  It looks like you are venerating the saints by that definition.  

    Recently I made an act of “total consecration” to Jesus Christ through Mary according to the method of St.  Louis Marie de Montfort.  Every day during my preparation for this ‘act’, I prayed the following prayer: “O Jesus, living in Mary, come and live in your servant in the Spirit of your holiness, in the fulness of your gifts, in the perfection of your ways, in the truth of your virtues, in the communion of your mysteries. Subdue within me the power of flesh and demon by Your Holy Spirit, for the glory of God the Father. Amen.”

    Does Jesus not live in Mary?   Or is it wrong to pray to Jesus?  Why?  If Jesus can live in your fellow Christian on earth, why can’t he live more perfectly with the ones in Heaven?   Of course we don’t want to make idols of our fellow Christians on earth by praying to them, as if they were God Himself. But it is no more wrong to ask the saints to pray for us, than it is to ask our fellow servants on earth to pray for us.  

    • #36
  7. Hartmann von Aue Member
    Hartmann von Aue
    @HartmannvonAue

    Vectorman (View Comment):

    Amy Schley: the collect for the Feast of St. Peter and St. Paul

    The names of two large LCMS churches here in Fort Wayne, along with St. Michael’s and @saintaugustine.

    You’re in Fort Wayne? I grew up in Wells County and one of my sisters and one of my nieces now live in Fort Wayne. Neat connection. 

    Anyway, my Catholic wife put it so: We are not dependent on the Saints as any king of go-betweens between us and the Father/Son/Spirit. But the Saints don’t need to sleep…they can intercede when we are unable to. I see up there that Danokl has used the same line of reasoning. Also neat.  

    • #37
  8. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Hartmann von Aue (View Comment):

    Vectorman (View Comment):

    Amy Schley: the collect for the Feast of St. Peter and St. Paul

    The names of two large LCMS churches here in Fort Wayne, along with St. Michael’s and @saintaugustine.

    You’re in Fort Wayne? I grew up in Wells County and one of my sisters and one of my nieces now live in Fort Wayne. Neat connection.

    Anyway, my Catholic wife put it so: We are not dependent on the Saints as any king of go-betweens between us and the Father/Son/Spirit. But the Saints don’t need to sleep…they can intercede when we are unable to. I see up there that Danokl has used the same line of reasoning. Also neat.

    They intercede when we are asleep? I don’t understand what this even means. Does God need constant nagging, so when I am asleep he might slough off the job, so I need the Saints to keep at it?

    No one needs to be between me and God. 

    • #38
  9. Hartmann von Aue Member
    Hartmann von Aue
    @HartmannvonAue

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Hartmann von Aue (View Comment):

    Vectorman (View Comment):

    Amy Schley: the collect for the Feast of St. Peter and St. Paul

    The names of two large LCMS churches here in Fort Wayne, along with St. Michael’s and @saintaugustine.

     

    They intercede when we are asleep? I don’t understand what this even means. Does God need constant nagging, so when I am asleep he might slough off the job, so I need the Saints to keep at it?

    No one needs to be between me and God.

    They would not be. There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of intercession at work here. If God does not need the “nagging of the saints” who went before us, then he doesn’t need your “Jesus begging”, either.  In truth prayer, intercessory prayer specifically, is about releasing God’s will into the world. What did Jesus teach the first disciples to pray, to ask of God? “Your will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.” God’s will is not being done on Earth, as a rule, and prayer is the means He has chosen for us to cooperate with Him in speaking his will into reality here. Put another way: The world as it exists is a world poisoned and corrupted by millennia of evil, deeply separated from God even at a basic physical level,  and prayer is one means he gives us to cooperate in drawing the world back closer to Him. 

    • #39
  10. danok1 Member
    danok1
    @danok1

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Hartmann von Aue (View Comment):

    Vectorman (View Comment):

    Amy Schley: the collect for the Feast of St. Peter and St. Paul

    The names of two large LCMS churches here in Fort Wayne, along with St. Michael’s and @saintaugustine.

    You’re in Fort Wayne? I grew up in Wells County and one of my sisters and one of my nieces now live in Fort Wayne. Neat connection.

    Anyway, my Catholic wife put it so: We are not dependent on the Saints as any king of go-betweens between us and the Father/Son/Spirit. But the Saints don’t need to sleep…they can intercede when we are unable to. I see up there that Danokl has used the same line of reasoning. Also neat.

    They intercede when we are asleep? I don’t understand what this even means. Does God need constant nagging, so when I am asleep he might slough off the job, so I need the Saints to keep at it?

    No one needs to be between me and God.

    James 5:14-16

    Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

    And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

    Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

    Seems James thought we should pray for one another and didn’t care about someone being “between him and God.”

    • #40
  11. Scott Wilmot Member
    Scott Wilmot
    @ScottWilmot

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    Regardless of how you say it and what you believe, it is quite clear that to many Catholics they are exactly that, and presented to me as such. That is not a bug, it is a feature of the system of Saints. Indeed, Saints were pasted on top of existing pagan gods as Christianity rolled forward. It was an easy step for Christian congregations rooted in paganism to replace the customs of local cults with the worship of dead martyrs. 

    Bryan – in many of these religious discussions you eventually get to the point where you display a lack of understanding of Catholic devotion.

    No one is forcing you to venerate or pray to saints, and the Catholic Church does not do this either. A Catholic in good standing does not have to have any particular devotion to the saints. But, the Church recommends this practice and devotion on the basis of Scripture and prohibits anyone from condemning proper devotion.

    I have not read anything from a Catholic here, claiming what you claim Catholics claim.

    If you want to know what we believe, I’ll offer these three articles.

    Any Friend of God is a Friend of Mine

    Praying to Saints Revisited

    Praying to the Saints

    • #41
  12. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    danok1 (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Hartmann von Aue (View Comment):

    Vectorman (View Comment):

    Amy Schley: the collect for the Feast of St. Peter and St. Paul

    The names of two large LCMS churches here in Fort Wayne, along with St. Michael’s and @saintaugustine.

    You’re in Fort Wayne? I grew up in Wells County and one of my sisters and one of my nieces now live in Fort Wayne. Neat connection.

    Anyway, my Catholic wife put it so: We are not dependent on the Saints as any king of go-betweens between us and the Father/Son/Spirit. But the Saints don’t need to sleep…they can intercede when we are unable to. I see up there that Danokl has used the same line of reasoning. Also neat.

    They intercede when we are asleep? I don’t understand what this even means. Does God need constant nagging, so when I am asleep he might slough off the job, so I need the Saints to keep at it?

    No one needs to be between me and God.

    James 5:14-16

    Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

    And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

    Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

    Seems James thought we should pray for one another and didn’t care about someone being “between him and God.”

    See bold above. You said, clearly, that we need the Saints to talk to God when we are alseep. You propose one of the very things I am responding against, and yet, when I respond against that, you go of to something else. 

    I might add, this narrows in on asking for intercession only. It ignores the minor deity aspects that bother me. Just because someone can say “Well, that’s wrong” does not account for how the Saints have been used by the Catholic Church over history. “The Saint of X”  is a pagan formulation, period. And being the Saint of X is the official teaching, no?

     

    • #42
  13. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    Regardless of how you say it and what you believe, it is quite clear that to many Catholics they are exactly that, and presented to me as such. That is not a bug, it is a feature of the system of Saints. Indeed, Saints were pasted on top of existing pagan gods as Christianity rolled forward. It was an easy step for Christian congregations rooted in paganism to replace the customs of local cults with the worship of dead martyrs.

    Bryan – in many of these religious discussions you eventually get to the point where you display a lack of understanding of Catholic devotion.

    No one is forcing you to venerate or pray to saints, and the Catholic Church does not do this either. A Catholic in good standing does not have to have any particular devotion to the saints. But, the Church recommends this practice and devotion on the basis of Scripture and prohibits anyone from condemning proper devotion.

    I have not read anything from a Catholic here, claiming what you claim Catholics claim.

    If you want to know what we believe, I’ll offer these three articles.

    Any Friend of God is a Friend of Mine

    Praying to Saints Revisited

    Praying to the Saints

    The paragraph you quoted is based on a historical understanding. Facts of history. I did not make a bunch of links to back me up, sorry. It is history. 

    “Praying” to me, is reserved for God. Period. End of story. No one else gets prayed too. 

    But, you keep trying to tell me I am misunderstanding. Please. 

    • #43
  14. SkipSul Inactive
    SkipSul
    @skipsul

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    But let’s be honest, the Catholic and Orthodox Churches don’t even have the same ones. And if UMC decided to create a Saint, would either of them agree to it? I doubt it. That whole “True Church” thing. 

     

    That the Catholic and Orthodox do not have an exact roster-match of canonized (that is, publicly recognized and commemorated) saints is, in no small respect, an issue of politics, not a matter of holiness, and neither would dare claim that either has a veto over the matter.  The roster (the Synaxis if you want to get technical) is shared up through around 1054, and only diverges after that point, but that does not stop personal recognition and veneration going both ways. 

    It’s rather funny because an Orthodox discussion group I’m in on Facebook was punting this very issue back and forth all this week, and lots of people were chiming in to talk about their admiration for this or that Catholic saint (St. Francis of Asisi, Aquinas, and others), and I have little doubt that many Catholics would venerate some particular Orthodox saints as well, if they knew of them (Nektarios of Aegina, for instance).

    And that’s only the ones we know about because their lives were prominent – they were canonized because they were known, their lives and miracles attested-to, and they were definitely known to have been in communion with either the Catholic or Orthodox churches.  In other words, they’re known.  How many great and holy men and women fell asleep in the Lord, unknown beyond their family, or without anyone knowing at all?  How many millions died in Stalin’s famines and persecutions?  How many Catholics and Orthodox killed by Nazis?  How many of both killed during various wars over prior centuries?

    I know of one Orthodox deacon who was a convert rather later in life.  He was raised in a Black gospel church (Baptist I think?), but had a real falling away for a few years as a young adult before straightening his life out.  His mother and especially his grandmother prayed incessantly for him during those years, and were instrumental in helping him get back on the right path in life.  His grandmother died not long after.  Years later, when he entered into the Orthodox church, he put a framed picture of his grandmother in his prayer corner, and regularly asks for her intercessions.  She’s not, of course, canonized.  Nor was she Orthodox.  Nor was she a great miracle-worker.  But is she a saint?  He certainly says so, and who am I to say otherwise?

    • #44
  15. SkipSul Inactive
    SkipSul
    @skipsul

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    “Praying” to me, is reserved for God.

    Pray: ORIGIN Middle English (in the sense ask earnestly): from Old French preier, from late Latin precare, alteration of Latin precari entreat.

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    Just because someone can say “Well, that’s wrong” does not account for how the Saints have been used by the Catholic Church over history.

    Heredity and Natural Selection are fascinating discoveries, and have done much to inform, and give formal structure to our intuitive sense of how the world works.  And yet they have been grossly abused by some.  Does that make them wrong?

    It’s one thing to base your argument on a difference of understanding of how something works, but quite another to attempt to discredit an argument because the argument has been misused.  We see that all the time on debates over things like firearms, where gun-banners conflate arguments over how things actually work with how they might be misused.  The two may be related, but they do not fully intersect. 

    It is the same with objecting to the notion I raised above:

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    Put another way, the central issue is over whether we believe these postulates about those who have died physically
    A) They are Alive in Christ, and
    B) Capable of hearing us.

    If you do not believe that a Christian, once dead, is (even if alive in Christ) able to hear us and pray for us, then of course the entire issue of saints is moot, and that’s the end of the discussion and there’s no need to go further.

    If you object to postulate B, then fine and be done.  But to bring in that some have misused saints is not to invalidate B, only to point out errors in application of what follows. 

    • #45
  16. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    SkipSul (View Comment):
    Nor was she a great miracle-worker. But is she a saint? He certainly says so, and who am I to say otherwise?

    One may well argue that anyone in the Church Triumphant is a Saint. 

    • #46
  17. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):
    Nor was she a great miracle-worker. But is she a saint? He certainly says so, and who am I to say otherwise?

    One may well argue that anyone in the Church Triumphant is a Saint.

    Do you know what is meant by the term “the Church Triumphant”? It refers to the saints in heaven. So yes, anyone in the Church Triumphant is, by definition, a saint. There’s nothing to argue here. You’re stating a position that Catholics and the Orthodox both hold.

    • #47
  18. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    “Praying” to me, is reserved for God.

    Pray: ORIGIN Middle English (in the sense ‘ask earnestly’): from Old French preier, from late Latin precare, alteration of Latin precari ‘entreat.’

     

    The word Pray to me is reserved for God. I don’t use its old forms, just like I don’t use a lot of old forms. Nor, might I wager, that most people use that old form either. So when you say “Pray to the Saints” they hear just what I do.

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    Just because someone can say “Well, that’s wrong” does not account for how the Saints have been used by the Catholic Church over history.

    Heredity and Natural Selection are fascinating discoveries, and have done much to inform, and give formal structure to our intuitive sense of how the world works. And yet they have been grossly abused by some. Does that make them wrong?

    It’s one thing to base your argument on a difference of understanding of how something works, but quite another to attempt to discredit an argument because the argument has been misused. We see that all the time on debates over things like firearms, where gun-banners conflate arguments over how things actually work with how they might be misused. The two may be related, but they do not fully intersect.

    The Catholic Church used Saints in a pagan way to get converts. Period. That is historical fact. I will not treat dead humans as minor deities. I find the practice abhorant. While I am at it, I think Icons are glorious works of art, but that their veneration makes me uncomfortable because it gets to close for my comfort to being graven images. 

    I don’t care much what the underlying theology is, because I am responding to the actual practice of the faithful that I see, and the practice often is no different than pagan practices. The great joy of the Reformation is that I can follow practices that fit with my understanding of the mystery of God.

    It is the same with objecting to the notion I raised above:

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    Put another way, the central issue is over whether we believe these postulates about those who have died physically
    A) They are Alive in Christ, and
    B) Capable of hearing us.

    If you do not believe that a Christian, once dead, is (even if alive in Christ) able to hear us and pray for us, then of course the entire issue of saints is moot, and that’s the end of the discussion and there’s no need to go further.

    If you object to postulate B, then fine and be done. But to bring in that some have misused saints is not to invalidate B, only to point out errors in application of what follows.

    This is saying something different than I am saying. Saints are treated as minor deities. Praying to them in their specific areas is no different from pagan worship. There are lots of other Catholic things that strike me as that as well. Best I can tell, no matter how clear I am about why that is, I am told I misunderstand. I don’t misunderstand. Saints are used as minor gods, and example was show in this thread. That is how they are used. I recoil at that. It is at best, superstitious nonsense. At worst. Well, I won’t go there. 

     

    • #48
  19. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

     

    “Praying” to me, is reserved for God. Period. End of story. No one else gets prayed too.

    You seem to be conflating “praying” with “worship”. Praying is simply asking earnestly, intently. If you have ever read older English works such as Shakespeare, you will see “pray” used quite commonly.

     

    • #49
  20. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):
    Nor was she a great miracle-worker. But is she a saint? He certainly says so, and who am I to say otherwise?

    One may well argue that anyone in the Church Triumphant is a Saint.

    Do you know what is meant by the term “the Church Triumphant”? It refers to the saints in heaven. So yes, anyone in the Church Triumphant is, by definition, a saint. There’s nothing to argue here. You’re stating a position that Catholics and the Orthodox both hold.

    It refers to everyone in Heaven:

    • the Church Triumphant (Latin: Ecclesia triumphans), which consists of those who have the beatific vision and are in Heaven.
    • #50
  21. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

     

    “Praying” to me, is reserved for God. Period. End of story. No one else gets prayed too.

    You seem to be conflating “praying” with “worship”. Praying is simply asking earnestly, intently. If you have ever read older English works such as Shakespeare, you will see “pray” used quite commonly.

     

    Yes. And, as I said above, I, and I would wager most people, don’t use it that way anymore. 

     

    • #51
  22. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):
    Nor was she a great miracle-worker. But is she a saint? He certainly says so, and who am I to say otherwise?

    One may well argue that anyone in the Church Triumphant is a Saint.

    Do you know what is meant by the term “the Church Triumphant”? It refers to the saints in heaven. So yes, anyone in the Church Triumphant is, by definition, a saint. There’s nothing to argue here. You’re stating a position that Catholics and the Orthodox both hold.

    It refers to everyone in Heaven:

    • the Church Triumphant (Latin: Ecclesia triumphans), which consists of those who have the beatific vision and are in Heaven.

    Yup. So what’s your beef?

    • #52
  23. danok1 Member
    danok1
    @danok1

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    This is saying something different than I am saying. Saints are treated as minor deities. Praying to them in their specific areas is no different from pagan worship. There are lots of other Catholic things that strike me as that as well. Best I can tell, no matter how clear I am about why that is, I am told I misunderstand. I don’t misunderstand. Saints are used as minor gods, and example was show in this thread. That is how they are used. I recoil at that. It is at best, superstitious nonsense. At worst. Well, I won’t go there. 

    I don’t think we’ll ever see eye-to-eye on this, but let me make one more argument/example.

    Nektarios the Wonderworker of Aegina was known during his earthly life for healing many people, particularly those suffering from cancer. We can say the Holy Spirit gave him this gift of healing. When people came to him and asked him to pray for their healing, or to heal them, were they treating him as a minor deity? Or as a holy man blessed with a gift?

    Now that he’s gone to join the Church Triumphant, why wouldn’t we still ask him to pray for us, or to pray for our healing, as the Apostle James instructs us?

    • #53
  24. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Amy Schley (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    I am not sure what baby I am throwing out to say I am not going to pray to a Saint.

    I believe what was meant is that in many Protestant churches, the understandable desire to not venerate saints means avoiding any mention of saints. They end up ignored and forgotten when we ought to remember them and hold them up as examples of God’s grace.

    December 26th is the feast of St. Steven the martyr, a poignant reminder immediately after Christmas of what being a Christian may cost us. December 28th is the feast of the Holy Innocents, the children killed by Herod after the report of the Magi. The verse for this day is what we sang at the March For Life, because Rachel has yet to cease her weeping for her slain children.

    Remembering the Saints, tying their lives to ours, is an important part of maintain continuity with our parents in the faith. A blanket “saints are pagan and have no place in Christianity” attitude is to make oneself an orphan.

    I did not take that stance. And my Church does mention Saints.

    But let’s be honest, the Catholic and Orthodox Churches don’t even have the same ones. And if UMC decided to create a Saint, would either of them agree to it? I doubt it. That whole “True Church” thing.

     

    Actually, Catholics and the Orthodox “share” quite a few saints, especially the early ones. I am happy to learn more about more recent Orthodox saints, and would be pleased to venerate them. 

     

    • #54
  25. Scott Wilmot Member
    Scott Wilmot
    @ScottWilmot

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    I will not treat dead humans as minor deities.

    Where do you get this idea that Catholics treat saints as minor deities? That is absurd.

    And the saints aren’t dead – they are alive in Christ, having gained eternal life.

    I believe you are a member of the United Methodist Church? The UMC prays a form of the Apostles Creed where you claim belief in the communion of saints. What does this mean to you and your church?

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    The great joy of the Reformation is that I can follow practices that fit with my understanding of the mystery of God.

    So you follow in the footsteps of Pope Francis, of whom one of his advisors said:

    Pope Francis breaks Catholic traditions whenever he wants because he is “free from disordered attachments.” Our Church has indeed entered a new phase: with the advent of this first Jesuit pope, it is openly ruled by an individual rather than by the authority of Scripture alone or even its own dictates of tradition plus Scripture.

    In other words you guys can ignore 2000 years of Christianity and make it up as you go along?

    • #55
  26. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

     

    “Praying” to me, is reserved for God. Period. End of story. No one else gets prayed too.

    You seem to be conflating “praying” with “worship”. Praying is simply asking earnestly, intently. If you have ever read older English works such as Shakespeare, you will see “pray” used quite commonly.

     

    Yes. And, as I said above, I, and I would wager most people, don’t use it that way anymore.

     

    I don’t agree. Sure, we might not use it as frequently as people might have in the past, but we still have phrases such as “pray tell me” in common usage. Nor do most people, I believe, think that if they ask someone to pray for them, that they’re turning that person into God or are worshipping them.

    • #56
  27. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

     

     

     

    This is saying something different than I am saying. Saints are treated as minor deities. Praying to them in their specific areas is no different from pagan worship.

    Then most Christians, both past and present, are pagans in your eyes because both Catholics and the Orthodox venerate the saints. Quite a large condemnation on your part.

    There are lots of other Catholic things that strike me as that as well.

    The Orthodox share most Catholic doctrine and practices. Do you think they’re pagan too?

    Best I can tell, no matter how clear I am about why that is, I am told I misunderstand. I don’t misunderstand. Saints are used as minor gods, and example was show in this thread. That is how they are used. I recoil at that. It is at best, superstitious nonsense. At worst. Well, I won’t go there.

    • #57
  28. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    The Catholic Church used Saints in a pagan way to get converts. Period. That is historical fact.

    Says who? If you look at the early Church, devotion to particular saints originated from the bottom up, so to speak. It still happens that way – the devotion to John Paul 2 was born in the laity.

    The great joy of the Reformation is that I can follow practices that fit with my understanding of the mystery of God.

    Not true. The freedom to follow practices that fit with your understanding of God is more of an American development than anything coming from the Reformation. If you lived in Calvin’s Geneva, the wrong thoughts and practices would get you killed or fined. The pilgrims coming to America were fleeing your fellow Protestants, not the Catholic or Orthodox churches. There are plenty of examples.

    • #58
  29. Amy Schley Coolidge
    Amy Schley
    @AmySchley

    Painter Jean (View Comment):
    the pilgrims coming to America were fleeing your fellow Protestants, not the Catholic or Orthodox churches.

     And they were fleeing those Protestants because the Church of England wasn’t totalitarianly theocratic enough for their taste. 

    But we’ve had this argument before: Bryan thinks the Reformation is awesome even though every Christian thinker of the time — Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant — would consider his denomination a heresy, if not outright apostacy.

    • #59
  30. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    Amy Schley (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):
    the pilgrims coming to America were fleeing your fellow Protestants, not the Catholic or Orthodox churches.

    And they were fleeing those Protestants because the Church of England wasn’t totalitarianly theocratic enough for their taste.

    But we’ve had this argument before: Bryan thinks the Reformation is awesome even though every Christian thinker of the time — Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant — would consider his denomination a heresy, if not outright apostacy.

    Yes, we have had this discussion before, haven’t we?!! 

    I just can’t see how someone who wants to write off the majority of Christians, past and present, as little more than pagans has much to say that I can attribute to thoughtful, respectful consideration.

     

    • #60
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