Where’s Your Hill?

 

When Roy Moore was in the process of being brought down in the Alabama Senate race last December, the standard response from the establishment side of the GOP was, “Look, Moore is a nutcase. This is not a court of law. There is no due process or presumption of innocence. He’s not the hill you want to die on.”

When Alex Jones was purged off of social media the response was, “This is not a government action, but the actions of private individuals. Besides, he’s a nutcase and this is not the hill you want to die on.”

Enter Brett Kavanaugh. As his reputation is destroyed by the minority party suddenly the establishment is appalled. Why? Well, primarily because even though he was nominated to SCOTUS by Donald Trump, Kavanaugh is seen as “one of us,” one of the good chaps whose pedigree of private high schools, Yale and all the right government clerkships and appointments was beyond question.

Is this the hill now? When you surrendered all of that territory before, when you tucked your collective tails between your legs and ran like scalded dogs, now you want to turn and fight? Look what you gave up before. Like the Alabama race, proceedings in the Senate Judiciary Committee are not the equivalent of a court of law. The ideas of due process and presumed innocence you gave away in December are a little hard to reclaim now. When you look at all of the private, non-government entities behind this smear job, how can you rebuke them?

Principles are funny things. If you don’t apply them to the people you dislike then they are unlikely to be of any use when you really need them.

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  1. Arizona Patriot Member
    Arizona Patriot
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Hammer, The (Ryan M) (View Comment):

     

    Actually, I am saying that we should not simply defend people because they are on our side. With Moore, there were a disconcerting number of people making excuses for the actual behavior alleged. It was characterized as: “he’s in trouble because he liked to date teenagers, but he had their parents’ permission.” Well… that may be principled inasmuch as your principle is that war-mentality of defending your side at all costs, but that is at the expense of other principles, more personal and more long-held principles.

    Here’s the problem, and I’m going to say it again.  I know that maybe you don’t read what I say, or don’t pay attention, or don’t care about the facts or the law.  That is what bothers me.

    There is NOTHING WRONG ABOUT DATING TEENAGERS!!!  We actually have a specific rule about this, codified in the law.  It is called the “age of consent.”  In Alabama at the time, and still today, and still today in 30 other states, that age is 16.

    So you see, I am not “defending my side at all costs.”  I’m objecting to you, and many others, accusing a man of essentially pedophelia when he was actually obeying — yes, obeying — the specific legal rule on the subject that was enacted by the State of Alabama, and is the current rule in most of the country.

    There was one — a single one — allegation of dating, and sexual misconduct with, and underage girl, allegedly 14 at the time.  Now maybe it was true, but I don’t believe it in the circumstances.  If I remember correctly, Moore was elected to statewide office twice, and the girl never spoke out.  She didn’t raise the issue until about 30 years after the fact, at the 11th hour of a very important Senate race.  That is not good enough for me.

    To make it clear, I’m an old married guy who hasn’t dated a teenager since he was a teenager.  The problem that I have is people taking legal, permissible behavior and somehow twisting it into a disqualification for office, especially when people do so based on questionable and late allegations.

     

    • #271
  2. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Tom Meyer, Common Citizen (View Comment):

    tommybdeepv (View Comment):

    Congrats on writing a post of “Michael Avenatti” quality.

    Not helping.

    But consistent with a body of work. The good news is that it’s usually a hit and run thing.

    Is it now necessary for me to know who Michael Avenatti is in order to keep up?  I’ve seen the name a few times, of course, in connection with Trump controversies, IIRC, but didn’t realize he was important. 

    • #272
  3. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Henry Racette (View Comment):
    I regret the inclusion of Brett Kavanaugh in any list that includes Roy Moore and Alex Jones. Moore was a bad judge; Jones is an ugly poseur and/or a nut.

    That’s a very bad principle to follow.  

    • #273
  4. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Concretevol (View Comment):

    EJHill (View Comment):
    The thinking always is, that guy is a nutcase so he deserves it. But it sets up the tactic for the guy who doesn’t deserve it.

    I understand your point but that also supposes that no one will ever deserve public shaming (or whatever) because then an innocent person may be shamed in the future. I like to think I can defend rigorously the person I perceive to be innocent and still not lift a finger to help a wacko conspiracy theorist.

    “Innocent” and “wacko conspiracy theorist” are not exclusive categories.  

    • #274
  5. EJHill Podcaster
    EJHill
    @EJHill

    The Reticulator: Is it now necessary for me to know who Michael Avenatti is in order to keep up?

    He’s Stormy Daniels’ sleezy porn lawyer.

    • #275
  6. JosePluma Coolidge
    JosePluma
    @JosePluma

    I know I’m getting into this late, but there is quite a difference.  Moore and and Jones are repulsive insects who make our side look like vermin by our mere association with them.  (I’m a not-Republican and not-human garbage nutcase, but anyone not a leftist is immediately globbed in with them.)

    Brett Kavanaugh is a better man than I’ll ever be, and all of this is a hatchet job by the fascists of the left.  That’s why this is a hill I’ll die on.

    • #276
  7. Fred Cole Inactive
    Fred Cole
    @FredCole

    EJHill (View Comment):

    The Reticulator: Is it now necessary for me to know who Michael Avenatti is in order to keep up?

    He’s Stormy Daniels’ sleezy porn lawyer.

    Yeah. It needs to be said that not only is he an attention whore, but he also has delusions of grandeur in that he thinks he’s going to run for President in 2020. 

    • #277
  8. Concretevol Thatcher
    Concretevol
    @Concretevol

    EJHill (View Comment):

    The Reticulator: Is it now necessary for me to know who Michael Avenatti is in order to keep up?

    He’s Stormy Daniels’ sleezy porn lawyer.

    or as Politico refers to him “potential presidential candidate”…

    • #278
  9. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    EJHill (View Comment):

    The Reticulator: Is it now necessary for me to know who Michael Avenatti is in order to keep up?

    He’s Stormy Daniels’ sleezy creepy porn lawyer.

     

    • #279
  10. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    EJHill (View Comment):

    The Reticulator: Is it now necessary for me to know who Michael Avenatti is in order to keep up?

    He’s Stormy Daniels’ sleezy porn lawyer.

    Yeah. It needs to be said that not only is he an attention whore, but he also has delusions of grandeur in that he thinks he’s going to run for President in 2020.

    Libertarian ticket?

    • #280
  11. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    Hammer, The (Ryan M) (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):

    JudithannCampbell (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (Ryan M) (View Comment):
    EJ, that’s nonsense. When you observe something awful about someone who did something awful, that’s not really an evil tactic.

    When did you observe Roy Moore being a sexual offender? Several people on this thread have stated that they believe he is a sex offender, you are saying that you have observed something? This is interesting. What did you observe Roy Moore doing?

    And if you didn’t observe him doing anything, how can you say you are not smearing him?

    I believe the whole thing about Roy Moore was made up. But look at how fast he was abandoned by the Republicans. The accusations worked . . .

    You don’t think voters were turned off by anything else Moore did?

    Nope.

    • #281
  12. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    Hammer, The (Ryan M) (View Comment):
    except to the extent that we talk about moral failings. If they don’t matter for our side, the don’t matter for the other side. 

    I’m not saying morals don’t matter, I’m saying the bar has been set to an impossible height – perfection.  The left is willing to have rapists, womanizers, Klansmen, etc. in office.  They are willing not only to accept imperfection, they flaunt it.

    Good thing I’m not running for office.  I’d be dead meat 5 minutes after I filed . . .

    • #282
  13. Fred Cole Inactive
    Fred Cole
    @FredCole

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    EJHill (View Comment):

    The Reticulator: Is it now necessary for me to know who Michael Avenatti is in order to keep up?

    He’s Stormy Daniels’ sleezy porn lawyer.

    Yeah. It needs to be said that not only is he an attention whore, but he also has delusions of grandeur in that he thinks he’s going to run for President in 2020.

    Libertarian ticket?

    Do you really wanna go there?

    • #283
  14. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    EJHill (View Comment):

    The Reticulator: Is it now necessary for me to know who Michael Avenatti is in order to keep up?

    He’s Stormy Daniels’ sleezy porn lawyer.

    Yeah. It needs to be said that not only is he an attention whore, but he also has delusions of grandeur in that he thinks he’s going to run for President in 2020.

    Libertarian ticket?

    Do you really wanna go there?

    Why not?  Our comments have been all over the map!

    • #284
  15. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    EJHill (View Comment):

    The Reticulator: Is it now necessary for me to know who Michael Avenatti is in order to keep up?

    He’s Stormy Daniels’ sleezy porn lawyer.

    Yeah. It needs to be said that not only is he an attention whore, but he also has delusions of grandeur in that he thinks he’s going to run for President in 2020.

    Libertarian ticket?

    Do you really wanna go there?

    Seems like a perfect fit.

    • #285
  16. SkipSul Inactive
    SkipSul
    @skipsul

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    EJHill (View Comment):

    The Reticulator: Is it now necessary for me to know who Michael Avenatti is in order to keep up?

    He’s Stormy Daniels’ sleezy porn lawyer.

    Yeah. It needs to be said that not only is he an attention whore, but he also has delusions of grandeur in that he thinks he’s going to run for President in 2020.

    Libertarian ticket?

    Do you really wanna go there?

    I hope he runs as a Dem.  The primaries would be soooo much more interesting.

    • #286
  17. Fred Cole Inactive
    Fred Cole
    @FredCole

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    EJHill (View Comment):

    The Reticulator: Is it now necessary for me to know who Michael Avenatti is in order to keep up?

    He’s Stormy Daniels’ sleezy porn lawyer.

    Yeah. It needs to be said that not only is he an attention whore, but he also has delusions of grandeur in that he thinks he’s going to run for President in 2020.

    Libertarian ticket?

    Do you really wanna go there?

    I hope he runs as a Dem. The primaries would be soooo much more interesting.

    He’s planning to run as a Democrat. 

    • #287
  18. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

     

    Yeah. It needs to be said that not only is he an attention whore, but he also has delusions of grandeur in that he thinks he’s going to run for President in 2020.

    So how is that any different from me?  Except being President is not good enough. My real name is Napoleon Bonaparte and am going to invade Russia to destroy Hillary Clinton’s internment camps and free the prisoners. 

    • #288
  19. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    DrewInWisconsin (View Comment):

    EDIT: Answered above.

    Best post in this thread! 

    • #289
  20. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Hang On (View Comment):

    PHenry (View Comment):
    If there is solid evidence that Roy Moore abused children, then judge away. I never saw anything like that, I saw accusations and a yearbook entry that proved nothing. Maybe there is more I don’t know about, I wasn’t all that caught up in it. But it sure looked like a smear to me. And it should have been called out and raised objections, even by those who didn’t support him because now that it was ignored, and it worked, it will be popping up again and again. As we have seen.

    I agree with that. The other glaring difference is Roy Moore is a hillbilly. Kavenaugh is an Ivy Leaguer from an upper middle class background. Wonder if that has anything to do with it?

    Ya think?

    Of course it did. Moore is not part of the coastal elite. Deep south, and when he was in his 30’s in the South then, it was not weird to date teenagers. It is weird now, especially in DC.

    This is part of the whole changing what is OK after the fact. We have legal protections against that too. But, since I guess only what matters in a Court of law is important, we can ignore the reputation destruction side of things. Not law, don’tcha’ know

    • #290
  21. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Stad (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (Ryan M) (View Comment):
    except to the extent that we talk about moral failings. If they don’t matter for our side, the don’t matter for the other side.

    I’m not saying morals don’t matter, I’m saying the bar has been set to an impossible height – perfection. The left is willing to have rapists, womanizers, Klansmen, etc. in office. They are willing not only to accept imperfection, they flaunt it.

    Good thing I’m not running for office. I’d be dead meat 5 minutes after I filed . . .

    You left out killers, as long as they are a Kennedy.

    • #291
  22. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    EJHill (View Comment):

    The Reticulator: Is it now necessary for me to know who Michael Avenatti is in order to keep up?

    He’s Stormy Daniels’ sleezy porn lawyer.

    Yeah. It needs to be said that not only is he an attention whore, but he also has delusions of grandeur in that he thinks he’s going to run for President in 2020.

    Libertarian ticket?

    Do you really wanna go there?

    I hope he runs as a Dem. The primaries would be soooo much more interesting.

    He’s planning to run as a Democrat.

    Porn is at home with the Democrats just as much as the Libertarians. Though, I am pretty sure only the Libertarians had a fat man strip. I figure the Dems would have a sexy lady. 

    • #292
  23. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    Jason Obermeyer (View Comment):
    but I do think rendering 11th hour accusations ineffective is.

    I think this is what the whole argument boils down to.  Last minute accusations are the typical Democrat ploy of last resort, whether they are true or not.  Maybe Roy Moore should have been defended on the grounds of denying the Dems one of their most effective tools.

    Put another way, we should always force the Dems to put all of their cards on the table up front.

    • #293
  24. Fred Cole Inactive
    Fred Cole
    @FredCole

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    EJHill (View Comment):

    The Reticulator: Is it now necessary for me to know who Michael Avenatti is in order to keep up?

    He’s Stormy Daniels’ sleezy porn lawyer.

    Yeah. It needs to be said that not only is he an attention whore, but he also has delusions of grandeur in that he thinks he’s going to run for President in 2020.

    Libertarian ticket?

    Do you really wanna go there?

    I hope he runs as a Dem. The primaries would be soooo much more interesting.

    He’s planning to run as a Democrat.

    Porn is at home with the Democrats just as much as the Libertarians. Though, I am pretty sure only the Libertarians had a fat man strip. I figure the Dems would have a sexy lady.

    Your Republican President had an affair with a pornstar while his wife was at home with their infant son. I’m not sure Republicans really hold the moral high ground here.

    • #294
  25. Fred Cole Inactive
    Fred Cole
    @FredCole

    Stad (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (Ryan M) (View Comment):
    except to the extent that we talk about moral failings. If they don’t matter for our side, the don’t matter for the other side.

    I’m not saying morals don’t matter, I’m saying the bar has been set to an impossible height – perfection. The left is willing to have rapists, womanizers, Klansmen, etc. in office. They are willing not only to accept imperfection, they flaunt it.

    Good thing I’m not running for office. I’d be dead meat 5 minutes after I filed . . .

    Impossible height? 

    If we’re talking about Kavanaugh, I don’t think the standard of “Didn’t try to rape anyone when he was in high school” isn’t too high of a standard. 

    • #295
  26. Judge Mental Member
    Judge Mental
    @JudgeMental

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    EJHill (View Comment):

    The Reticulator: Is it now necessary for me to know who Michael Avenatti is in order to keep up?

    He’s Stormy Daniels’ sleezy porn lawyer.

    Yeah. It needs to be said that not only is he an attention whore, but he also has delusions of grandeur in that he thinks he’s going to run for President in 2020.

    Libertarian ticket?

    Do you really wanna go there?

    I hope he runs as a Dem. The primaries would be soooo much more interesting.

    He’s planning to run as a Democrat.

    Porn is at home with the Democrats just as much as the Libertarians. Though, I am pretty sure only the Libertarians had a fat man strip. I figure the Dems would have a sexy lady.

    Your Republican President had an affair with a pornstar while his wife was at home with their infant son. I’m not sure Republicans really hold the moral high ground here.

    I’m pretty sure you meant our Republican president.

    • #296
  27. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    EJHill (View Comment):

    The Reticulator: Is it now necessary for me to know who Michael Avenatti is in order to keep up?

    He’s Stormy Daniels’ sleezy porn lawyer.

    Yeah. It needs to be said that not only is he an attention whore, but he also has delusions of grandeur in that he thinks he’s going to run for President in 2020.

    Libertarian ticket?

    Do you really wanna go there?

    I hope he runs as a Dem. The primaries would be soooo much more interesting.

    He’s planning to run as a Democrat.

    Porn is at home with the Democrats just as much as the Libertarians. Though, I am pretty sure only the Libertarians had a fat man strip. I figure the Dems would have a sexy lady.

    Your Republican President had an affair with a pornstar while his wife was at home with their infant son. I’m not sure Republicans really hold the moral high ground here.

    But it was a voluntary exchange of services between two consenting adults.  Doesn’t that tick all the correct libertarian boxes?  Why do you have a problem with it?  

    • #297
  28. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    Fred Cole (View Comment):
    If we’re talking about Kavanaugh, I don’t think the standard of “Didn’t try to rape anyone when he was in high school” isn’t too high of a standard. 

    If someone is going to be accused of a rape it might be nice to have a few facts like “where” and “when”.   Kind of hard to defend yourself from an accusation that spans several years and an unknown location.  No witnesses willing to confirm it ever happened. No police report, medical records, never informed parents, teachers, friends at the time. Nothing. Nada. Zilch.  Just a sudden accusation 30+ years later.  it’s a joke.

    And no I do not “always believe the victim” . Here’s a fact people ( women included) lie about things all the time.  Thats why we developed our judicial system over hundreds of years to deal with events like this.

    • #298
  29. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    EJHill (View Comment):

    The Reticulator: Is it now necessary for me to know who Michael Avenatti is in order to keep up?

    He’s Stormy Daniels’ sleezy porn lawyer.

    Yeah. It needs to be said that not only is he an attention whore, but he also has delusions of grandeur in that he thinks he’s going to run for President in 2020.

    Libertarian ticket?

    Do you really wanna go there?

    I hope he runs as a Dem. The primaries would be soooo much more interesting.

    He’s planning to run as a Democrat.

    Porn is at home with the Democrats just as much as the Libertarians. Though, I am pretty sure only the Libertarians had a fat man strip. I figure the Dems would have a sexy lady.

    Your Republican President had an affair with a pornstar while his wife was at home with their infant son. I’m not sure Republicans really hold the moral high ground here.

    But it was a voluntary exchange of services between two consenting adults. Doesn’t that tick all the correct libertarian boxes? Why do you have a problem with it?

    Because it allows him to opine with certainty about something that’s unproven?

    • #299
  30. Fred Cole Inactive
    Fred Cole
    @FredCole

    Kozak (View Comment):
    But it was a voluntary exchange of services between two consenting adults. Doesn’t that tick all the correct libertarian boxes? Why do you have a problem with it?

    You may have missed my point. My problem with it isn’t a legal one, but a moral one. And my point is that Republicans really aren’t in a position to smugly crow about moral superiority. 

    • #300
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